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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are feminists so aggressive?

736 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2017 14:11

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

OP posts:
Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:15

goosefoot
I'm a committed lurker here, I read all of the threads on FWR, I've seen posters that have been shut down and 99% of the time it's completely obvious why they've been shut down. They're not posting in good faith. They're not posting to find out more information. They're posting to either derail the thread or grab some screenshots to share and gloat about on Twitter. Some of them have derailing down to a fine art.
I've also seen regular posters on here take time and patience to answer questions that are posed over and over again.
Then after a question has been answered for the nth time and a question comes back that has one slight alteration, the regular poster, who, quite rightly has had enough of the obfuscation basically says fuck this I'm off.

LordRandallXV · 18/09/2019 21:08

I always take studies with a pinch of salt, not least because people don't tend to mention the ones that don't fit their agenda, like the below. It's always been said that men are more reluctant to report domestic abuse and interestingly more recent studies which have asked women instead paint a very different picture. However, most of the studies concur that men do the most harm, likely due to their strength, even though women are possibly more likely to be the abuser.

Women are more likely to be verbally and physically aggressive towards their partners than men suggests a new study presented as part of a symposium on intimate partner violence (IPV).

Analysis showed that women were more likely to be physically aggressive to their partners than men and that men were more likely to be physically aggressive to their same-sex others.

Furthermore, women engaged in significantly higher levels of controlling behaviour than men, which significantly predicted physical aggression in both sexes.

Dr Elizabeth Bates of the University of Cumbria explained: "This was an interesting finding. Previous studies have sought to explain male violence towards women as rising from patriarchal values, which motivate men to seek to control women's behaviour, using violence if necessary.

"This study found that women demonstrated a desire to control their partners and were more likely to use physical aggression than men. This suggests that IPV may not be motivated by patriarchal values and needs to be studied within the context of other forms of aggression, which has potential implications for interventions."

Women more likely to be aggressive than men in relationships

June 26, 2014
British Psychological Society

www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-women-aggressive-men-relationships.amp

The study, which challenges the long-standing view that women are overwhelmingly the victims of aggression, is based on an analysis of 34,000 men and women by a British academic.

"It's a complex argument but we do get more women aggressing against male partners than men against female partners," said Dr George. "The view is that women are acting in self-defence but that is not true - 50 per cent of those who initiate aggression are women.

His research is backed up by historical records which show that men who were beaten by their wives were publicly humiliated in a ceremony called a "skimmington procession". The procession was named after the ladle used to skim milk during cheese making.

Women are more violent, says study

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html?amp

The article summarised the latest official statistics and research on domestic violence, providing evidence that most domestic violence is two-way, involving women as well as men.[2] This was regarded as a breach of policy, because, on its own website, RAWA says its domestic violence policy “is historically framed by a feminist analysis of gendered power relations” which, contrary to the international evidence, denies women’s role in domestic violence.

The problem is often more complicated, and may involve both women and men as perpetrators”. Based on the findings of an analysis of more than 11,000 American men and women aged eighteen to twenty-eight, the letter concluded:

"When the violence is one-sided … women were the perpetrators about 70% of the time. Men were more likely to be injured in reciprocally violent relationships (25%) than were women when the violence was one-sided (20%). That means both men and women agreed that men were not more responsible than women for intimate partner violence."

After analysing the data, which contained information about domestic violence reported by 11,370 respondents on 18,761 heterosexual relationships, the following conclusions were reached:

- A woman’s perpetration of domestic violence is the strongest predictor of her being a victim of partner violence;[7]

- Among relationships with non-reciprocal violence, women were reported to be the perpetrator in a majority of cases; [8]

- Women reported greater perpetration of violence than men did (34.8 per cent against 11.4 per cent, respectively).[9]

Based on the information available, the authors concluded:

Our findings that half of relationships with violence could be characterised as reciprocally violent are consistent with prior studies. We are surprised to find, however, that among relationships with nonreciprocal violence, women were the perpetrators in a majority of cases, regardless of participant gender. One possible explanation for this, assuming that men and women are equally likely to initiate physical violence, is that men, who are typically larger and stronger, are less likely to retaliate if struck first by their partner. Thus, some men may be following the norm that “men shouldn’t hit women” when struck first by their partner.

Women Can Be as Violent as Men

quadrant.org.au/magazine/2018/09/women-can-violent-men/

Design/methodology/approach

The paper's approach is to re‐examine NISVS data, research on the impact of IPV on male victims and the system's response to it.

Findings

In the last year, males are more often the victim of intimate partner physical violence, psychological aggression and control over sexual/reproductive health.

Social implications

Increased domestic violence education directed at women and services to men should lead to a reduction of DV against women as well as men, since woman aggressors frequently are themselves victimized subsequently.

US National Survey: more men than women victims of intimate partner violence

www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/17596591211244166/full/html

Creepster · 18/09/2019 20:11

No getting around the fact that there are people who think women with the nerve to say no, thank you, are rude.
I guess it depends on whether you view the FWR board as a place where Feminists talk about women's rights or a board where women are expected to educate people who don't bother to read the news or google Feminism 101.
There are many women here on FWR with the patience of Job who respond positively to inquiries that do not include an insult in the first sentence, and even some that do. I am not one of them.

StopThePlanet · 18/09/2019 16:51

GirlDownUnder

Thank you Smile

Considering the recent study completed and reported on this week in the US based on aggregated data gathered from women 18-44yrs, 1 out of 16 women in the US have a non-consensual (whether through extreme coercion or force) first experience of sex. They reported the average of the age of 15yrs for the survivors (girls/women) and the average rapist/assaulter age for that same group was 27 (boys/men). The overwhelming number of women whose first sexual experience was in the single digits like myself is what drug the average down to 15yrs.

Unfortunately I'm not unique - this is an epidemic here in the US and I expect that if the same type of study was done internationally it would be seen as a pandemic. It is a societal disease (male domination/entitlement/power) which men carry and infect women with through their actions.

This is our world. Through giant tears pouring from my mother's heart she asked me why is the world like this?

Goosefoot · 18/09/2019 16:06

I have never, ever, ever seen this.

Really? I see this all the time here, three or so times a week probably. I know people who have tried to post here, looking to find out more about various issues, and had people be so rude to them they never came back. They were just regular women, not members of some sort of weird patriarchal group, so it's nothing to do with women talking back to men being seen as acceptable.

Now, it's always the same few people, but that's often enough to give the impression that a whole board is like that.

GirlDownUnder · 18/09/2019 15:55

StopThePlanet

Loved your post. The content is mostly horrifying but your strength and words are remarkable Brew

Creepster · 18/09/2019 01:51

I think that falls under the 4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 23:19

Is there a rule for the wickedest thing a woman can do (other than not wanting to touch a man's penis) is tell him he's being silly?

Creepster · 17/09/2019 23:08

I see we have moved on from page 18 to the 12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

Creepster · 17/09/2019 23:03

I am only on page 18 but thought it might be appropriate to mention this.
13th rule of misogyny: Angry women are crazy aggressive. Angry men just have trouble expressing themselves.

StopThePlanet · 17/09/2019 22:18

/rant fin

StopThePlanet · 17/09/2019 22:17

Perhaps I qualify to "moan about men" as a CLASS (while simultaneously being married to the most incredible man on the planet).

See yesterday my mom came to my house for a hug... so sweet and benign at face value.

For context, I am 42yrs old - old enough to be covered under the protective class of age here in the US (so "old" by law standards lol).

But, you see, the need for a hug was predicated by the fact that her soon-to-be ex-husband approached me via phone about an incredibly inappropriate subject of which I disclosed to my mom yesterday morning. I also reminded her of the last time I saw her husband in person; two months ago he yanked my ponytail from behind me to pull me to him for a hug. The experience was very confusing and disturbing. She told me yesterday that he is a "hair puller" during sex (I surmised that when the incident occurred) and is particularly fond of ponytails in that regard... like a rein. Three years ago I was gently coerced (by my mom) into calling this man "dad" even though he isn't old enough to be my father and I made it known that it made me uncomfortable (also they've only been married eight and a half years and I've only seen him in person maybe 15 times over 8 years). I capitulated to the will of her desire to placate his feelings and thusly complied.

So yesterday she comes to my house for a hug after being completely inconsolable over the phone because she feels guilty. She feels guilty that she brought another misogynistic predator into my life. She feels guilty because when I was sexually assaulted at 5 years old in my own bed she hired the babysitter that committed the assault. She feels guilty that we parted ways when I was 16 and I went off into the world to live on my own. She feels guilty that when I broke up with a boyfriend at 18yrs old (6(+/-) month relationship) I was attacked in the dark in my apartment building then beaten, raped, and then left bleeding and naked unconscious on the street. She feels guilty that I had to have an abortion to maintain my own sanity after said rape.

But most of all she feels guilty for as she says "I brought an angel into a world of demons and saw it with such rosy glasses, with such blinders due to burying my own CSA experience - I believed I was protecting you". And she feels guilty that when I told her at 12yrs old about what happened to me at 5yrs she said to me "at least it wasn't your father". I don't blame her for any of those things and comforted her while she apologized and I continuously told her that she is not responsible for my experiences.

Four males (my grandfather, Billy the 16yr old boy that assaulted me at 5yrs, Michael the rapist, and mom's almost ex) directly and indirectly have impacted my mother's sense of the world today and retroactively judges herself and feels like a terrible parent - those are encounters with individuals that caused damage. Focusing on that though ignores all of the sexism she's encountered in her professional life and career and as a single parent. She's a brilliant person she has her doctorate (earned at my age) and has experienced all the trappings of being an attractive intelligent professional woman. She doesn't hate men even though she's going through a brutal emotional experience right now, she's keeping her sense of fairness in tact. Notably, her socialization still coerces her constantly to put herself in the backseat even when teaching to demand the seat up front. She taught me to: walk it off if I wasn't bleeding or physically broken, create and enforce personal boundaries (she's the exception in relation to my boundaries though which I am still trying to shake), take responsibility for my words and actions, support myself financially, be responsible for my own happiness. She is a really good mom.

Men as a class oppress women as a class today. As an individual woman in the private sphere I am seen as being private property ("the wife of DH" - even by my actual father as well as contractors and salespeople, the mortgage company won't speak to me about changing our loan terms unless my DH is present even though I'm first in position on the mortgage and primarily financially responsible, etc.). In the public sphere I am seen as being public property (no legal right to privacy from males when I change in the gym, words to describe my sex are being hijacked, random men come up and touch my body without my consent or legal recourse, and so on and so forth). Men call me baby, honey, sweetie, sexy, sugar, pumpkin - I am an infant, I'm an object, and I am food. Men call my DH boss, chief, sir, gentleman, dude, man, brother, etc. Men force past me, run into me, step on my feet, elbow me in the face when working through a crowd. Men get out of DH's way - they make a path for him, they take a step back or turn to accommodate, they excuse themselves when making their way through a crowd.

Good men, men who see the need for feminism understand that the way we navigate the world is different and the way we are treated while navigating the world is also different. Women's vulnerability is heightened in relation to and compared with men's. One punch to my face by a large man could literally kill me.

I am a survivor of child sexual abuse I am a survivor of rape and the necessary recourse (abortion). I'm a survivor of sexial harassment at work - I have lost three jobs (two professional) for refusing sexual advances by superiors at those institutions. Most men attempt to infantilize me because I'm short of stature, full of energy/animated communicator (I get told I'm sassy, firecracker, cute, sexy), and because most seem to not be able to think with their brain when they talk to me (arousal due to my "vivaciousness" it is my fault or so I'm told) shut down their ability to listen to me as a professional/peer/individual or because they see me as an object. Sometimes their inability to communicate with me is really beneficial in my professional field (negotiations especially) but mostly it's really really irritating with a side of demoralization.

Right that NAM are a threat (or misogynists or rapists or murders etc.) BUT AMA a potential threat. My DH is not a threat and is pretty fantastic IMO but not because he's perfect - because when I bring something to his attention (sexist or otherwise) he takes the time to consider it and comes back hours, days, or sometimes weeks later with a well-thought-out perspective of which we can then discuss the subject on a deeper level. I used to believe that none of my male friends were a threat until recently I had undisputable in your face proof (he in a fit of rage choked his wife of 30yrs - my BFF - to unconsciousness in front of their seven-year-old daughter).

Just like men as a class, men as individuals don't have to commit physical acts of violence to oppress women - they can do it with their words and how they model behavior for their sons and nephews et al. Some men are teaching boys to hate, oppress, and subjugate women and unfortunately some women worship at the altar of men's power further showing boys that dominating women is how to be a man.

I don't hate men as a group. To be honest I don't hate anyone. I hate mushrooms, asparagus, and squash; dairy and beef hate me... however, I love cows and they seem to like me too.

I am a feminist, a pragmatist, and a dreamer. I am strong and I have a voice.

Words are not violence how people internalize their meaning and act on their perspective can be violent. But I am internal locus of control kind of person and don't care what anybody thinks of me beyond those that I love. I leave the validation seeking individuals to validating each other so I can focus on maintaining (and gaining) my and future girls/women's rights (exclusive of all males regardless of how they identify).

MrGHardy · 17/09/2019 21:08

Because when you have your ideas challenged, it seems like aggression.

Inebriati · 17/09/2019 21:04

I dont even know where to start with all the red herrings. I just wish people would fact check before they post.

why is suicide the most common cause of death in males under 50yo
Because men choose more violent methods than women and are more successful.

''In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?''
www.bbc.com/future/story/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women

''In the western world, males die by suicide three to four times more often than do females.[4][7] This greater male frequency is increased in those over the age of 65.[8] Suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent among females.[9][10][11] Researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives.''

Gender differences in suicide
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2019 20:37

Moaning about men isn't 'solving' the problem.

identifying problematic behaviours statistically perpetrated by men is a necessary prerequisite to finding solutions though.
Even good men may be quite oblivious to these problems, unfortunately, so it falls to women on the receiving end of them, and other women who can empathise with the victims, to raise these issues. And to keep raising them until changes occur. In some cases, good men will get the message and help - that's great.

If someone characterises this persistent identification of issues as moaning then ... oh ... another problem identified.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 20:06

Interesting correlation between the men who're always moaning about women moaning about men and the men who've proven incapable of getting women to moan because of men in a more fun way.

Terry's cartoon makes me think of the people arguing that global warming can't be real because it was really cold that one day a few weeks ago.

terryleather · 17/09/2019 20:03

This thread put me in mind of this...

Why are feminists so aggressive?
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 20:01

women can be a class because they're not really people are they? I mean not really.

they don't have actual feelings. that's why it doesn't matter that loads of shitty things happen to them just because they're women.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:59

moaning about men

aka noticing that most of the violent, nasty things that happen to, well anyone really, men included, are done by other men

stop noticing things

notice, notice, notice. we'll have to call you little miss notice

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:55

Men can't be a class because they're all fascinatingly unique individuals, but women are a class because we're a bit boring, yeah?

I can't wait till all the people terribly offended by Magdalen Feminism discover Dworkin!

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:52

everyone knows women don't invent things kittens

not temperamentally suited to it. they chose not to

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:50

and then there's Magdalen Feminism, as mostly practised here

which randall says makes things worse for women as a class even though he doesn't believe in class analysis

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 17/09/2019 19:48

in many ways I blame Mary Wollstonecraft. If that woman knew what her legacy was to be, she never would have slept at night

And if all the manchildren who don't realize that her daughter invented science fiction as a genre knew about that family connection they wouldn't either!

LordRandallXV · 17/09/2019 19:48

Moaning about men isn't 'solving' the problem. Of course not all feminists do (NAFALT), but it certainly seems a bit overrepresented.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/09/2019 19:48

Beryl Feminism?