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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why are feminists so aggressive?

736 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2017 14:11

This, or something like it, it always being asked. People say that the FWR board on here is scary and hounds out people whose faces don't fit. That women are always being told they can't be feminists if.......And so on. And so on.

In my experiences, you are much more likely to get an aggressive response if you express a feminist point of view than the other way round. Is it just me? Or am I missing something?

There have been plenty of interesting feminists threads recently, where everyone seems to be holding their own- but the same old accusations keep coming up.

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zebrasdontwearbras · 20/09/2019 01:26

41 mins in - to around 46 mins. The emotion is palpable, and extremely brave women in that segment Thanks

zebrasdontwearbras · 20/09/2019 01:21

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p07ctvvn/a-high-school-rape-goes-viral-roll-red-roll

I just came across this on bbc Iplayer. It's about the very distressing Steubenville rape case. I was very aware of it at the time, but I'd never seen this film, which is excellent.

41 minutes in - is one of the most powerful and moving film sequences I have ever seen. Of women talking about their experiences. Like a mini #MeToo prior to the #MeToo movement.

38 mins in they show the video that Anonymous released, and made this thing viral.

This is why feminists are angry. You can call us aggressive, if you like, but we know why we are angry.

Creepster · 19/09/2019 22:11

When men and boys stop this shit, I'll stop objecting stridently. That's what they mean by "being aggressive": strident objection to male violence and entitlement.
I think that is an accurate assessment of the accusation of aggression against Feminists.
I notice they do not call us shrill so much any more. Perhaps because "The Shrill One" was made into a joke by Nobel Prize in Economics winner Paul Krugman.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 13:34

1 out of 16 women in the US have a non-consensual (whether through extreme coercion or force)

Or boys just walking up to an eight year old girl and groping her vulva without asking. #metoo

first experience of sex. They reported the average of the age of 15yrs for the survivors (girls/women) and the average rapist/assaulter age for that same group was 27 (boys/men). The overwhelming number of women whose first sexual experience was in the single digits like myself is what drug the average down to 15yrs.

Stoptheplanet Flowers

When men and boys stop this shit, I'll stop objecting stridently. That's what they mean by "being aggressive": strident objection to male violence and entitlement.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 13:22

feminists citing studies on sexual assault on campus

To talk about the prevalence of sexual assault on campus, surely? If I want to talk about the prevalence of off-campus sexual offending, I would use studies about off-campus offending.

most of the women classed as being 'raped' didn't actually know it themselves

It is distressingly commonplace, both amongst rapists [1] and victims, not to use the word "rape" to describe acts that meet the criminal definition of the word [2]. A woman who tells her husband no but he puts his dick in her anyway is unlikely to describe him as a rapist nor herself as a rape victim, nonetheless he is a rapist and she has been raped. He is unlikely to describe himself as a rapist because of commonly-held, and legally-unsupported since 1992, beliefs about rape within established relationships.

Studies are designed to measure whether men have actually raped, not whether they label themselves rapists nor whether their victims label themselves as raped. Asking questions that describe events and behaviours, instead of labelling them as "rape" without further description, is by design to get accurate results.

Footnotes:

[1] If a survey asks men, for example, if they ever "had sexual intercourse with somone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances," some of them will say yes, as long as the questions don’t use the “R” word.

Emphasis mine.

[2] Section 1: Rape:
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Note: nowhere does it say "(d) unless B was drinking", "(d) unless A and B" are dating", "(d) unless A is B's husband" etc.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 07:04

They think they make us angry 🤣.

I'm never surprised when emotionally unintelligent individuals confuse indifference for anger... I mean that's what narcissists do, right?

I'm done amusing myself for the evening the transparency has become boring.

Catch ya on the flip!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 06:51

A kink rather. None of them seem to have a kind anything. A Kinder egg, maybe.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 06:50

Why do men find it satisfying wandering from one feminist site to another trotting out the same arguments? Is the pleasure in thinking that they're forcing us to listen to them (they're not, most of us scroll past their copypasta)? Do they have a kind for arguments in which bored, irritated women sigh at them? It really is the strangest hobby.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 06:45

LordRandallXV

D-E-F-L-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me
D-E-F-L-E-C-T
Take care, TCB

I expected more of you. 😭

LordRandallXV · 19/09/2019 04:59

A survey conducted by polling 1,104students (706 women and 398 men)at a university is hardly representative of the population of men and women.

I've seen plenty of feminists citing studies on sexual assault on campus - including the original '1 in 5' study for which the authors said it 'probably shouldn't be used as evidence' as most of the women classed as being 'raped' didn't actually know it themselves (included something like having regretted it afterwards).

zebrasdontwearbras · 19/09/2019 00:40

*That was was obviously very aggressive of me to say so.

How dare us aggressive feminists point out that more men beat the shit out of women, and kill women, than the other way round?

zebrasdontwearbras · 19/09/2019 00:36

Thanks again StopThePlanet - I was thinking of posting a rebuttal to Lord's post - but couldn't be arsed. I've had these debates, under different names, for years on Mumsnet. It's the "women do it too" argument, and it simply doesn't hold water.

Speaking generally you need to be wary of the collection methods of data in these studies with the bizarre finding that women are more aggressive. Self reporting is unreliable - because research has shown that women under-report (and play down) dv, while men over-report.

And sometimes these studies give as much weight to "she scratched me" or "threw the remote at me" as "he imprisoned me, and beat me, kicked me, and I was hospitalised" - counting these incidents as "equal" acts of domestic violence.

Suffice to say that men account for well over 98% of sexual crime convictions, over 80% of violent crime convictions, and (from memory) around 85-90% of domestic violence convictions. I think someone who seriously believes women are more aggressive or violent than men, are not living in the real word at all. Maybe get out more, LordR - because the facts speak for themselves.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:32

😁

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:16

I'm sure he'll tell you what you can do to regain manfavor! No guarantees about how much sense it will make.

Meanwhile everyone else will continue their group hug offcamera. Or possibly a group pat on the back if they're feeling particularly British.

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:12

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Bad woman, no manpraise for you!

But, but it's so painful! Who will validate me who, who??? Now I'm broken! 😭

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:08

Bad woman, no manpraise for you!

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:07

Thanks to everyone for the kind words.

Uh... I mean shame on us for centering women in a feminism forum!!!! Bad women, bad women, heel!!! Anyone have a ruler to snap my knuckles with? I'm sure Lordhandinhispants will be along shortly to show me my place. 🤣

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:06

(Next post will be "there they go calling me and MRA just because I've posted the entire MRA bingo card in exactly the order they predicted I would".)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 19/09/2019 00:05

It's always so funny to watch a love-in develop on a thread where the "but you're all so mean and I don't feel that my MRA talking points are receiving the deference they deserve" army is out.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 00:04

How many men murder women,.children, and other men each week? Yet they have the nerve to.call us aggressive...

StopThePlanet · 19/09/2019 00:00

LordRandallXV

Cool story bro.

Earlier in the thread you talked about how this board is basically middle-class middle-aged white women who have never been murdered, raped, etc.

The incredibly long post I wrote before I posted about the study was mostly (for the lurkers whilst) directed at you as a response to your claim that we are all living in our ivory towers discussing the travesties of the peasants below. Because you believe you have just as much of a right to have your opinions considered on women's issues as us (as per your assumptions that we don't know of which we speak) even though you are a man. That you know better our suffering, our demoralization, our subjugation, and our anger. But really you are just another "dick" trying to tell a bunch of "pussies" (double entendre intended) what to think on a feminism board. It is really fucking hilarious. 🤣

Quite unsurprising that you chose to ignore that post and jumped on the study that I posted which properly reflects (by the way) the experiences of not only myself but most women I've had any deep conversation with.

There are lots of bogus studies out there that aren't peer-reviewed and they don't hold any weight (anything McKinnon talks about etc). But newsflash, this particular study was based on data collected by the United States federal government health services, authored primarily by a female and co-authored by a mixture of female and male medical doctors (so not biased based on sex in regards to data collection and analysis), and is peer reviewed meaning a valid study - published by the American Medical Association.

Furthermore, did you see the age ranges of the data collected? Did you also see the average age of the victims as well as the perpetrators? And you want to focus on female violence from bogus studies?

British Psychological Society

www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-06-women-aggressive-men-relationships.amp

A survey conducted by polling 1,104 students (706 women and 398 men) at a university is hardly representative of the population of men and women. I look at more people than that when I do market analysis for a potential area of service for clients. Additionally, that study was not peer-reviewed as the BPS just recently adopted registered reporting which allows them to have peer review. The "study" is from 2014 thus before peer review. Between the small sample set as well as the fact that the survey was of college students the study is invalid for the reported topic.

Women are more violent, says study

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-are-more-violent-says-study-622388.html?amp

Where's the study? There aren't any links to it in the article of course and there's no reference to peer review or what publication published it as a scholarly article or study. If not peer-reviewed or published his analysis is completely subjective thus not valid.

Women Can Be as Violent as Men

quadrant.org.au/magazine/2018/09/women-can-violent-men/

Now we're into actual publications that are peer reviewed. But the sample age was 18-28 (again, likely college students) so while valid data it is not representative of the breadth of the population. Surveys conducted by polling people three to four years past completion of brain development are not a good marker to apply to society as a whole only application of said statistics to that demographic are relevant.

US National Survey: more men than women victims of intimate partner violence

www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/17596591211244166/full/html

Emerald is a publisher who acquired another publisher (Elsevier) as well as others and then published studies on predatory publishing citing "predatory" practices that all of the original and acquired companies are known to demonstrably practice (not citing authors, advertising via studies, illogical and unfounded "studies" etc.). Funny that, none of their studies mention themselves.
Additionally, the survey reviewed from the US was from one year - (2012) whereas the date of collection began in 2011 and continues through today. Why I wonder did Emerald Publishing's Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, Vol. 4 No. 3, pp. 155-163 author of the study ignore the first year of data?

As per NISVS, the data collected is a complex sample survey, sampling weights are needed in statistical analyses in order to make inferences to the U.S. adult population. Additionally, these surveys are conducted via random telephone dial contact to domestic households only and does not take into account those that are homeless or those living in DV shelters or temporary housing.

And considering Bert H Hoff (study sole author) is an individual with a JD he likely does not have the statistical analysis skills required to analyze such data. Because nowhere in his education would he be required to study complex statistical analysis. People like Bert contact analysts to analyze their data but since there is no analyst citation I surmise that he wrote some macros in Excel or used the simple LexisNexis statiscal tool meant for simple data analysis (primarily financial operations) and plugged in the numbers and declared it STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. The University of Phoenix is a commercial (for profit) college whose graduation rate is 17% with student loan defaults at 26%... UoPX has been under investigation by the US Federal Trade Commission since 2015 and still is today - it is owned by a private-equity firm. Bert H Hoff is an adjunct professor at UoPX (with no other affiliations listed or found online, like he hasn't done anything notable in academia beyond declaring "women bad, men abused, poor men!") so I highly disregard his standard of ethics. Also, I can't find any evidence that he ever worked in law by searching public documents from US district courts (if he couldn't pass the bar he definitely isn't capable of statistical analysis). Full stop.

No one here denies that men are also victims of DV, however, as feminists we don't center men. Why don't you take your worries to a men's board and do something to support the men of which you speak? DV perpetrated against men is a men's issue and you are on a feminism board.

So ignore and deflect if you want but you aren't fooling anyone here with your bogus "studies" supporting your MRA arguments.

Ereshkigal · 18/09/2019 23:51

How about Cock Feminism?

Perfect. It will go far.

Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:56

I wanted to add to Stop the Planet your post hit many chords with me, it was very moving and Flowers for you

Aberhonddu · 18/09/2019 21:54

zebras
It does piss me off a lot when Mumsnet users condemn FWR posters as a bunch of transphobic nutters. I've seen and read the help they've given to so many genuine questioners of the GC stance. I've also seen many heart warming threads involving parents of transgender children. I've seen genuine compassion from FWR regulars and to write them off as bigoted transphobes is just ridiculous.
In RL I can hold my own in a conversation about the trans ideology just because of everything I read here.
This, for me is the best part of Mumsnet

zebrasdontwearbras · 18/09/2019 21:34

Thank you for saying that, Aberhonddu - I always like it when the lurkers unlurk to say something positive about FWR Wink

And StopThePlanet - that was a very heartfelt and justified rant - thank you Thanks