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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Usborne Puberty Book tells children that breasts exist to make milk and to make girls look grown up and attractive

209 replies

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 30/08/2017 09:53

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/aug/29/usborne-apologises-puberty-book-childrens-publisher?CMP=share_btn_tw

Breasts are there for 1) milk 2) to make girls look grown up and attractive

Nice to know that our children are being taught that breasts are there to look at

OP posts:
NewDaddie · 03/09/2017 18:09

To be clear I do not agree with what newdaddie is saying.

Oh.

Just when I thought I'd found my Dame in shining armour.

traffordtimes · 03/09/2017 17:55

Theory on breasts being attractive to men is the most common? Is this serious scientific research or just I love those that stick out?
Not sure what the second part even means, but take a look at the research, please, it really isn't my personal view! As I said, I can't find any evolutionary biology sources online with a different view, but would be interested to hear of them.
This is a Guardian article, but references several academic sources:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2010/may/14/breast-size-evolution

Datun · 03/09/2017 17:24

'Breast man', 'leg man', 'bum man'. Did women grow all these things for men? Or just boobs - cos, you know, it's the only different one.

Despite many men preferring bums?

DeleteOrDecay · 03/09/2017 17:14

The fact that some men like breasts is a side effect, not a reason for breasts existing. It's a preference, in the same way some people prefer red hair over brown etc.

As a woman I resent the notion that I grew breasts for the gratification of men.

Elendon · 03/09/2017 17:05

The most common theory on why they persisted, is that they were attractive to men - in fact I cannot find any other theories on why they evolved that way. Would be interested if there are other theories, but even then, this is considered the most likely reason currently.

Theory on breasts being attractive to men is the most common? Is this serious scientific research or just I love those that stick out?

Some men like long legs and couldn't care less about breasts. Why haven't women evolved to have long legs?

traffordtimes · 03/09/2017 15:46

Common characteristics (legs, mammary glands) can take disparate evolutionary paths for all sorts of reasons. The fact that some men find breasts attractive doesn't mean that sex is the reason for obvious breasts.
No, but there is usually some evolutionary advantage to a new characteristic for it to persist once it has appeared largely by chance, I think that is accepted widely. Obviois external breasts can be cumbersome when running, and could be vulnerable when you are attacked, so there is very likely something in their favour, or they would have tended to fade out over generations.

Women may well have spent more time lactating in the past, but many animals spend a high proportion of their lives feeding young too, so if that was the reason we have them, many animals would also tend to have breasts from puberty.
The most common theory on why they persisted, is that they were attractive to men - in fact I cannot find any other theories on why they evolved that way. Would be interested if there are other theories, but even then, this is considered the most likely reason currently.
As I said, I don't think the wording in the book is particularly a good idea for small boys, but that doesn't make it true that breasts are there, sticking out on women's chests, just to feed babies.

RJnomore1 · 03/09/2017 15:04

Ah sorry elen! I get you now.

Elendon · 03/09/2017 14:44

I'm a human being. I don't go on heat like other mammals thank you very much.

If I choose as a human with the brain of a human to do breast feeding all my reproductive life then that's a choice (though I'd probably be best tending the fields and letting others feed my children).

I bet the best and most productive societies were those who had equality in all measures. No big houses, all working together for the better good of the community.

We just don't read or have knowledge of them (I wonder why?)

bluegrape · 03/09/2017 14:08

Is it common for other mammals tandem feed offspring of varying ages? I genuinely don't know.

bluegrape · 03/09/2017 14:06

Early women may have been lactating for much of their adult life.

Batteriesallgone · 03/09/2017 13:50

Common characteristics (legs, mammary glands) can take disparate evolutionary paths for all sorts of reasons. The fact that some men find breasts attractive doesn't mean that sex is the reason for obvious breasts. Unless we are claiming that sexual attraction is the reason behind all the characteristics that distinguish us from other animals.

traffordtimes · 03/09/2017 13:43

Women have breasts to feed babies.(important full stop) That is a difference between men and women. Men have come to like them.
I am not condoning the way the book has presented information to children, but it is surely not this simple?
All mammals feed their young milk, but only humans have obvious breasts when not lactating. So I don't really see how you can infer that obvious breasts had to evolve in order to feed babies? What am I missing here??

I appreciate that we might prefer to think that they didn't evolve in their current form to attract men, and we may not want to point that out to little boys, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Xenophile · 03/09/2017 13:42

Exactly bluegrape given that women put far, far more energy and time into producing offspring, the idea that it was men who chose mates is ridiculous.

Datun · 03/09/2017 13:38

The latest I have seen is where 2 boys are fighting to be some girl's boyfriend. They feel like they are entitled to make the choice not the girl.

It's so insidious, isn't it, MrsGWay?

Who cares what she wants?

I'd be very interested to know what you think of the book aimed at girls. Do report back.

bluegrape · 03/09/2017 13:27

Pregnancy and childbirth would have been very high risk for early women. The idea that women needed to convince men to procreate isn't logical.

Elendon · 03/09/2017 13:10

Can you imagine if men had to spend money in buying proper underwear that lifted and separated their testicles? Loads of information in how to make them more attractive? More productive?

Elendon · 03/09/2017 13:05

It would be incredibly wrong for Breast Cancer charities to say that the loss of a woman's breast means she is no longer attractive to men though, wouldn't it?

MrsGWay · 03/09/2017 13:00

To be clear I do not agree with what newdaddie is saying, just that as someone who did extended breast feeding I could see the benefits of not having to wake up to do it.

We have the equivalent book for girls so I'm going to look at what it tells girls about boys. Whether there is any aspect of the male physique whos purpose is described as being attractive to the opposite sex.

I often have to point out to my daughters that their existence isn't just to please men. The message that they are in programmes and adverts is relentless. The latest I have seen is where 2 boys are fighting to be some girl's boyfriend. They feel like they are entitled to make the choice not the girl.

Elendon · 03/09/2017 12:59

Sorry RJ, I was agreeing with you.

bluegrape · 03/09/2017 12:52
Grin
Manclife · 03/09/2017 12:51

If breasts were for the pleasure of men evolution would've put tassels on them. Till then they're for breast feeding.

RJnomore1 · 03/09/2017 12:51

No I agree totally elen I wasn't defending the view of breasts as for men. Rather I was trying to point out that even if you do view them as both for feeding and sexual pleasure the sexual pleasure should be the woman's - not some man viewing them (if any of that makes sense)

Elendon · 03/09/2017 12:49

Yes, women can orgasm in sleep as well (I do).

But saying this will be attractive to men is wrong.

Men have wet dreams and this is most attractive to women.

Not all humans are attracted to the opposite sex.

RJnomore1 · 03/09/2017 12:44

I've read the end of the thread and the start of the thread so apologies if this is in the middle but I need to go out:

I haven't seen any mention of the fact that breasts also give women sexual pleasure and stimulation. Some women apparently can orgasm from breast and nipple stimulation alone.

Suggesting that breasts in a sexual aspect are only for male pleasure is the same as suggesting the vagina is merely a convenient sheath for the penis.

bluegrape · 03/09/2017 12:29

I'm considering this more in the context of early women where tandem feeding would presumably have been the norm.

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