Should rape be considered as a hate crime?

What I described.

@Ereshkigal yes, depend on the severity it COULD be public order.

Don't understand your last post though. What did the CPS 'school pack' say?

Because then the CPS can put out bollocks like their schools pack terrifying young girls into staying silent when a male is present in a female space because it's a terrible hate crime to object. Yet women have no similar recourse and our needs will come last.

I'm not happy with sex not being an allowable hate crime category when race, gender identity etc are.

Just to clarify the post I was replying to was talking about street harassment.

Yes it should be and so should street harassment

Its not a hate crime as it's not a 'crime' in the first place so couldn't therefore be a 'hate crime'.

It depends on the incident surely. Some of it will be against the Public Order Act.

Sorry
It is not clear to me whether posters are saying male on male rape cannot ever be a hate crime or if they can conceive there could be circumstances where there is an element of hatred.

Sorry just to sort of sum up what's been said here (and please correct me if I've gotten the wrong impression) but it seems to be that all male rape of females is motivated by hate and should therefore by definition be a hate crime?

Yes , that is what is being argued but if all rape of women by men is a "hate crime" then the term is meaningless- it is simply a very serious crime.

The only rapes which would not be "hate crimes" would be rape of men and boys. It is not clear to me whether posters are saying male on male rape is not a hate crime or if they can conceive there could be an element of hatred (possibly straight men raping gay men ? Or degradation ( the rape scene in the film Deliverance for example.

For those reasons I think it is a pointless argument but I would certainly support much harsher sentences and greater scrutiny before parole is granted.

Sorry just to sort of sum up what's been said here (and please correct me if I've gotten the wrong impression) but it seems to be that all male rape of females is motivated by hate and should therefore by definition be a hate crime? And that by being a hate crime would be subject to greater punitive measures? Is that correct?

So without trying to be difficult can someone explain the argument to me that establishes that all male on female rape is NECESSARILY based on hatred? Not trying to be goady, just want to understand.

Squishee - you've summed it up in one short sentence.

Rape is a serious offence and should be punished by a sentence that reflects this- The sentencing powers should be great enough without the need for extra uplift under the title of hate crime.
Also to class it as a hate crime against women, ignores the fact men and children of both sexes are raped. Do we classify this as hate crime too? Should they not be sentenced as harshly because they're not hate crimes.
To recognise something as a hate crime there needs to established motive relating to hate- such as in race hate, may include racist words etc to prove the motive. How would you establish motive in a rape case, just saying because she's a women is a total assumption.
Sexual abuse and rape, is abuse and can happen to anyone I don't think it's about hating women.

Nottingham continued with it after the trial AFAIK I've no link for it but email them and they'll confirm either way.

ANY type of hate motivation can be put forward as an aggravating factor. Wether the courts accept it is another matter. For a hate crime there is no need for proof of the 'hate' element. At court however there must be.

Why does it need another label? It's horrendous enough as it is.

There are plenty of opportunities for consensual sex in prison. There are people who identify as gay anyway and people who identify as heterosexual on the outside but are 'gay for stay' in prison for intimacy/relationship or just for mutual sexual pleasure.

Rape in male prisons tends to be about power/control/intimidation/punishment. The same applies for womens prisons (although it happens less frequently in my experience, serious and often violent sexual assaults do occur).

Yes and no.

If there's an actual offence they can record, investigate and charge that e.g. public order. However it wouldn't be prosecuted as a hate crime as the legislation isn't in place.

For a hate incident it would purely be recorded. Nothing would/could be done in that instance because there's no offences.

*Just to add I don't work for either of those forces, I'm just working on general policies for England and Wales

Rodhullstvaerial

Ok. So currently, you can report it, it gets recorded, but nothing gets done? In one police force.

Datun it's not an aggravating factor yet. You won't find a criminal prosecution.

Manclife

I can't see in that Nottingham police force link where it says they extended the trial after December 2016. That FOI was dated January 2017, where it said the trial had ended.

The Yorkshire police news is fantastic. It only began in May, but nonetheless.

Although it's good news, it needs to be rolled out across the entire country.

I've tried googling prosecutions, but so far I haven't found any.

This may be because people don't realise it is a crime.

Does the fact that Nottinghamshire trialled misogyny as a hate crime mean that an individual police force can determine what is or isn't a hate crime? Or do they generally have to to accept the guidelines from the CPS?

No, it's written in law. What I believe the Notts CC did was recorded "hate incidents" if there was a misogyny "qualifier"

Police now record "hate incidents" as well as hate crimes. I can't remember the exact definition of a hate "incident" but in brief it's any incident that any person (not necessarily the victim) believes has happened as a result of one of the qualifiers another poster outlined above. It doesn't even need to be a crime. For e.g. I've seen one report where a landlord didn't let a tenant use joss sticks. He believed it was because the landlord was racist so be reported it to the police. Obviously there is fuck all the police can/Will do about this but it's recorded and that person has an appointment made with an officer.

The Notts CC extended this idea to include any issue that any person thought was misogyny. If it wasn't a criminal offence then no changes to law was needed (as nothing would be done about it barring collecting stats) If it was a criminal offence it'd be dealt with as a stand alone, such as cat calling be dealt with as a public order offence (if serious enough) but not as an aggravated offence

@NoLoveofMine

"Street harassment should also be classified as such seeing as women and girls constantly face it purely down to our sex. Sadly, this isn't even something which would even be investigated let alone seen as a hate crime."

Its not a hate crime as it's not a 'crime' in the first place so couldn't therefore be a 'hate crime'. It could however be classed as a hate incident.

Link to Police leads discussing the matter in parliament
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/home-affairs-committee/news-parliament-2015/170217-hate-crime-ev/

Notts Police Misogyny crime stats.
www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/document/misogyny-hate-crime-received-nottinghamshire-police-foi-00928016

North Yorks police saying they are rolling it out too:
northyorkshire.police.uk/hidden-pages/newsletters/newsletter-march-2017/north-yorkshire-police-announce-misogyny-now-recognised-hate-crime/

The OP was about rape being a hate crime against women and I have provided links to 2 forces that do accept complaints of hate crime due to a person’s sex. I am also aware of other police forces doing this too (no I don’t have a link) and AFAIK the trail is now permanent. Should all forces take this up? I don’t see a problem with them doing it and can only help victims later in the court process.

I’m aware CPS and NPCC (ACPO was disbanded a while ago) do not state this but that’s because individual forces are taking the lead rather than the organisation. Which is a shame.

CPS do not dictate to police what they can/can’t do and regardless of it being deemed a ‘hate crime’ targeting a person due to their sex would be put forward as an aggravating factor which would go towards sentencing.

I’ve no statistics on the number of prosecutions etc but then if I’m honest I haven’t looked.

Sorry! I'm asking you a lot of questions today.

Rodhullstvaerial

Does the fact that Nottinghamshire trialled misogyny as a hate crime mean that an individual police force can determine what is or isn't a hate crime? Or do they generally have to to accept the guidelines from the CPS?