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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joss Whedon's ex wife exposes him as a fake feminist.

30 replies

ProofBy1nduction · 22/08/2017 09:37

www.avclub.com/article/joss-whedons-ex-wife-kai-cole-says-hes-hypocrite-p-259690

I am so disappointed. I always thought he did 'get it' but apparently not.

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AnnMeredithPerkins · 24/08/2017 21:10

Yeah must be... after all I don't know why my words are untrustworthy any more than the next person... but I must go away... (like I'm bothered about some random on the internet... not so much)

Puffpaw · 24/08/2017 21:09

She is, hadn't you heard meredith?

AnnMeredithPerkins · 24/08/2017 21:08

Haha sillage... are you the boss of mumsnet?

Icantreachthepretzels · 24/08/2017 18:57

Sorry I'm late to this party, but I think what Dervel said upthread could do with reiterating - Joss as good as sacked the actress who played 'Cordelia' for the crime of getting pregnant. Whilst she was pregnant he called her 'fat'. He didn't just write her out for the duration of her maternity leave he destroyed her character in a way that people are still angry about 14 years later. Cordelia had been in his shows for 6 years and that was how he treated her.

All his shows are problematic when it comes to women (I love Buffy, it's a fantastic show, but it's not feminist - unless feminism is about being able to punch the hardest) 'Angel' (t.v home of the aforementioned Cordelia) is just depressing in its treatment of women (in 5 years it only has 3 female regular cast members (in contrast to 7 male) 2 of those die of mystical pregnancy (the 3rd is a comic relief vampire who is only regular cast for the last few episodes) and 5 other mystical pregnancies appear throughout the show - 2 of them given to Cordelia (the 3rd one killed her) who was then fired for getting pregnant in real life!

Firefly -don't even get me started on Inara! (in the future the greatest honour a woman can hold is being an academy trained prostitute) and if you want to see something that will really make you vomit then just read up on Tim Minnear's episode that (thankfully) never got filmed where Inara is gang raped by reavers but when Mal finds her he cleans her up and I quote - 'treats her like a lady'.
Then there is River Tam, the damaged, violated, slightly crazy genius - who actually has a lot in common with Fred - the damaged, violated, slightly crazy genius in Angel (who makes up the third and final mystical pregnancy death in that show.)

In Doctor Horrible, Penny is the only named female character, she doesn't interact with any other women and she is fridged (admittedly right at the end.)

I haven't seen his Marvel work, but I have been informed that Black widow describes herself as monster for being barren and claims that they sterilise their female assassins because it makes killing easier for them. Unless there is a whole lot of dialogue around this that somehow negates that sentiment entirely, that seems pretty offensive a statement to women in general and infertile women in particular.

So, yeah - his feminist credentials have long been overblown. If you actually look at his work there is some really troubling stuff in it. Buffy was hailed as feminist because it had a well rounded (she gets to talk about boys and demons) female protagonist who had a female support network. That this was seen as extraordinary doesn't make Buffy feminist - Its just a shocking indictment of the rest of television.

A lot of people don't like hearing this though because they really love Buffy and they get very defensive over any criticism (unless its a criticism of specific episodes). But even Buffy should not be above criticism.

Thing is, if you want hilarious lines, great acting and more heart break than the human soul can safely endure, then Buffy is the place to go. If you want feminism though - you need FWR Smile

sillage · 23/08/2017 20:07

"Everything that happens has a different slant to whoever is remembering it...."

Now that you've pointlessly pointed out that everything means nothing and no words anyone says can be trusted, will you stop adding your untrustworthy words here and go away?

VestalVirgin · 23/08/2017 10:59

For those who are still on the fence about Joss Whedon's alleged feminism, perhaps this leaked script might provide some insights:

www.refinery29.com/2017/06/159775/joss-whedon-wonder-woman-script-leaked-reactions

AnnMeredithPerkins · 23/08/2017 08:08

I see you trying to cloak your, "She's lying" behind a vague pronouncement that everybody lies about divorces.

Everything that happens has a different slant to whoever is remembering it....
I'm not saying either of them are lying. Are you projecting after a bad experience?

munchkinmaster · 22/08/2017 21:41

As an aside you can't really get a diagnosis of "complex" (whatever the fuck that is) ptsd from finding out your husband had an affair. only in America.

Puffpaw · 22/08/2017 21:37

But I also don't think marriage is feminist.
So I don't know about JW

Puffpaw · 22/08/2017 21:34

I don't believe men can be feminists, even good men.

CatsAreAssholes · 22/08/2017 21:19

I don't think being an unfaithful husband makes you not feminist in your views (I don't think men can be actual feminists). It just makes you a morally bankrupt shit husband.

MotherPeresA · 22/08/2017 20:22

Wow sillage. I don't know whether to be impressed by your faith in ex-wives or depressed by your cynicism towards everybody else. Either way, I know where to go for someone who can thoroughly judge others on the flimsiest of details.

ProofBy1nduction · 22/08/2017 19:56

Thanks for the responses - I've been out all day.

Maybe no men can actually be feminists. It is patronising and I think wrong to have a man be a spokesperson for a feminist issues, like just because they are male they know better.

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sillage · 22/08/2017 19:31

"No but there are 3 sides to every story... his hers and the truth"

I see you trying to cloak your, "She's lying" behind a vague pronouncement that everybody lies about divorces.

Everyone doesn't, and MotherPeresA's petty dig at a multi-millionairess selling her side of the story to a newspaper for the money reeks of gold digger misogyny.

VestalVirgin · 22/08/2017 19:25

Stop defending him. We don't only have his ex wife's word against him, we have the word of lots of other people, AND his writing. Which isn't all that feminist.

I like a female protagonist who kicks ass as much as the next feminist, but if the writer also uses rape for drama, et cetera, it is pretty obvious that the guy in question isn't really a feminist.

Yes, the headline "wife exposes him as fake feminist" is rather exaggerated, but that's because we know he is fake already from other sources.

Dervel · 22/08/2017 19:22

The optics are pretty clear, his response that he's not going to respond for his families sake and respect for her is as good as saying she hasn't behaved in the interests of their kids. If either of these things were true he would have said nothing at all.

Also based on the way he fired CC for being pregnant I think you have all the data you need.

AnnMeredithPerkins · 22/08/2017 19:12

"People are known for their graciousness after divorces."

Women are expected to suffer men's abuses in eternal silence.

No but there are 3 sides to every story... his hers and the truth

sillage · 22/08/2017 19:08

"People are known for their graciousness after divorces."

Women are expected to suffer men's abuses in eternal silence.

GiveMeTheTeaAndNobodyGetsHurt · 22/08/2017 17:59

I've always been wary of men who loudly declare their feminist credentials. I know several male feminists, and know they are feminists by the way they behave, not by what they say they believe.

The 'LOOK AT ME BEING A MALE FEMINIST' types are generally another iteration of the self-declared 'good guys'. Superficial, transparent, and patronising, the lot of them.

VestalVirgin · 22/08/2017 17:52

I'm a fan of his work, but wasn't aware he was promoting himself as a feminist.

A quote by him is the fucking page quote for the Feminist Fantasy Trope on TVTropes!

(As of now. I realized this because someone suggested that it be changed, but right now, he is that much of a feminist icon that his words on the topic are considered more worthy of quoting than those of ANY FEMALE AUTHOR)

MotherPeresA · 22/08/2017 17:27

People are known for their graciousness after divorces.

Certainly, selling your story to a newspaper is always a sign of magnanimity Hmm

deydododatdodontdeydo · 22/08/2017 14:07

I'm a fan of his work, but wasn't aware he was promoting himself as a feminist.

PricklyBall · 22/08/2017 13:41

TV writer/director of mostly sci fi series, Lass. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, some input into the Marvel films (widely believed by fans to have mucked up Black Widow's character entirely).

NKFell · 22/08/2017 13:40

Buffy the Vampire Slayer lass

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 22/08/2017 13:32

Who is he? I've never heard of him. I could Google but might as well admit it.

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