Is prostitution rape?

Quite, manclife - I don't think many posters have thought through what would happen if we start taking the position that adult women do not have the autonomy to decide whether or not they have consented to sex. Imagine what would happen at rape trials if defence barristers could argue that the law recognises that women cannot always determine whether or not they consent.

People get on their high horse about the morality side and don't think through the legal implications- and anyone who tries to point them out is accused of supporting prostitution.

I'm all for a Nordic model of criminalising punters. I don't support denying the autonomy of adult women to consent to sex for money. It's paternalistic and would make a nonsense of the law of rape.

mrsdustybusty

You had up until this last post made a reasonrd argument and put your case across well.

Thanks, Mr Teacher! I'll try and earn my merit points back!

As an aside arguing that payment removes consent would open up a legal minefield in many potentially unforseen ways.

This is not as compelling and argument as you might imagine.

Where do these fucking punters crawl out from ?

So how does this sit with the argument put on a recent thread that women can choose what to do with their own bodies? Are you saying women should not be allowed to choose to have sex with someone for money? Would that not contradict the backbone of feminism which is the ability to for a woman to choose?

As an aside arguing that payment removes consent would open up a legal minefield in many potentially unforseen ways.

Yes. This:

Having sex with someone who you know isn't enjoying it seems awfully close to rape to me

And this:

Penile penetration without freely given consent. Whether that's coersed, manipulated, given from someone too young or too intoxicated or bought consent it's still without freely given consent

sum it up precisely

"@MrsDustyBusty how on earth can you know what I intended to say?"

Oh, past experience and feminine intuition.

@gonegonegone a fair comment, I had thought about that but as we were discussing hypothetical and theories decided against raising it.

@MrsDustyBusty how on earth can you know what I intended to say? You had only referenced female prostitution not prostitution in general. Nor had you covered the obvious next step which is the world of pornography. You had up until this last post made a reasonrd argument and put your case across well.

Man that would be sexual assualt as rape is legally a crime of penile penetration but yes essentially it's the same thing if it's a women buying sex.

Lots did you read what u wrote earlier, how I was repeatedly gang raped as a child and had what I believed at the time was consensual sex with my much older boyfriend at 14? I have plenty of experience of rape and of working with survivors as a residential SW, then a psychiatric sw, working within the prison device, running survivor support groups, self defense classes and working with rape crisis centres.

Rape is penile penetration without freely given consent. Whether that's coersed, manipulated, given from someone too young or too intoxicated or bought consent it's still without freely given consent.

Yes, you were trying to catch me out in some utterly stupid way. You were all set to call me some kind of massive feminazi who objects to men abusing women but celebrates men being abused.

Which isn't the case, although I care more about the very widespread and varied sexual abuse of women and girls than the very limited abuse of men.

"Didn't say I thought otherwise, just clarifying your position."

Wondering why you thought it necessary..........

Didn't say I thought otherwise, just clarifying your position.

So that would include women using male prostitutes (of which there has been a significant increase in the past few years) and those in the porn industry (where women are paid more than men).

Of course. Why would you think otherwise? Anyone using financial power to coerce someone into sex they wouldn't otherwise consent to is raping them.

So that would include women using male prostitutes (of which there has been a significant increase in the past few years) and those in the porn industry (where women are paid more than men).

For me there's a middle ground which is as long as the consent is informed and there are no consequences to saying no then its not an issue. By arguing the payment alone suggests a lack of consent it moves attention away from those truely in need of safe guarding. Interestingly I find those who wish to legalise it tend to be left leaning on their political ideals.

Most men raping prostitutes are married or in relationships, not the can't get sex any other way sad sacks

How could you possibly know that without being either a prostitute or a punter?
Seriously, these threads are so full of bullshit and made up nonsense at times.

And no, it's not rape when it's consensual sex regardless of the exchange of money. We have our own minds, and are quite capable of giving consent or removing consent.

Personally my thoughts are no. If the woman has made the decision that she ( and she alone) wants to have sex for money then that's up to her. If a woman is trafficked or forced via a pimp or groomed into believing it is the only way to please her boyfriend/get drugs etc then yes that is rape.

Yeah, I think so. The whole point is to use money to get a woman to do something she wouldn't otherwise do. Most men raping prostitutes are married or in relationships, not the can't get sex any other way sad sacks that we're supposed to pity and see prostitution as A Good Thing to help.

So does that equate across the 'money for sex' spectrum?

Surely the point of raping a prostitute is that the punters know they don't really want to have sex with them and absent money, wouldn't pass them on the street? That's the ultimate exercise of lovely, lovely power, isn't it?

gonegone I absolutely believe in the horrific experiences of prostituted women. My concern is that it is counter-productive to characterise all prostitution as rape.

I agree with Derval's point that handing over/accepting money does not equal consent. But the OP asks exactly the opposite: does handing over money automatically invalidate consent, even if the woman concerned is adamant that she has consented. I don't believe it does. That doesn't mean that I don't think prostitution is vile - I do.

I certainly am glad I wasn't doing it long enough to find out why happened when I said no.

There was something about my "pimp" that although he seemed to be an ok guy I just wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him. One of the clients I had was in the police. Knew it was wrong but thought somehow not having actual sex made it less serious somehow.

One of his other girls was telling me about the sponges she used when she was on her period so something told me no one had the excuse for saying no.

Incidently she was only doing it as her ex ran off and left her with a child and didn't pay for the kid.

As I said I do consider myself very fortunate that nothing bad happened that wasn't the case for some of the other girls.

It doesn't even bother me that I did it tbh I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I should care more but I think that my standard or expectations of myself were so low at that point anyway and even now I have to confess to having a hard time determining what's on and what's not with regards to people's actions towards/treatment of me that really anything short of the blatantly obvious I'd just simply shrug off or not even register.

Christ, I wish people would stop referring to us all as ‘prostituted women’, as though someone is ‘doing’ it to us and we have no agency of our own.