Is prostitution rape?

The thing is, simple economics and the way goods and services typically become "commodified" would suggest that for every independent escort catering to the "luxury" end of the market, able to vet her clients and earn a lot of money, there will be a dozen, a score of women working the "bargain basement" end of the market.

This extract, from an article on full decriminalization in Germany spells out how the commodification leads to cut prices, prostitutes effectively on "zero hours contracts" as supposedly independent contracters, lower prices per customer, and a massive increase in trafficking.

The idea of the law, passed by Chancellor Gerhard Schröder’s Social Democrat-Green coalition, was to recognise prostitution as a job like any other. Sex workers could now enter into employment contracts, sue for payment and register for health insurance, pension plans and other benefits. Exploiting prostitutes was still criminal but everything else was now above board. Two female politicians and a Berlin madam were pictured clinking their champagne glasses in celebration.

It didn’t work. “Nobody employs prostitutes in Germany,” says Beretin. None of the authorities I spoke to had ever heard of a prostitute suing for payment, either. And only 44 prostitutes have registered for benefits.

What did happen was the opening of Europe’s biggest brothel – the 12-storey, neon-wrapped Pascha in Cologne. Not to mention a rash of FKK, or “naked”, clubs where men can spend the evening drifting between the sauna, the bar and the bedrooms. Bargain-hunters might try the “flat rate” brothels, where an entry fee of between 50-100 euros buys you unlimited sex with as many women as you want, or cruise the caravans at motorway truck stops, or the drive-through “sex boxes” in the street-walking zones. (They look like stables and are known as “verrichtungsboxen” - “getting things done boxes”.)

Yes, a lot of men tell similar stories. Of course, there's no wedge in saying it's a nightmare.

dustbunny- you make valid points.

My family member worked as a prostitute for nearly 30 years, until she was 50. We have spoken at length. She was very much paid for her services.
She has taken me tours of her extensive walk in wardrobes of ( very expensive) "working" clothes. She had certain sexual specialities and could make a premium from this.
She worked as an escort also and could easily make several thousand pounds in a day.
She loved her job. She retired in her early 50s owning a house worth £2 million which she had earned in her own right.

Dustbunny1900, you must know that your experience of sex work is just that, your experience? There are many studies that look at the very real damaging effects of doing this work for many women.....that cannot be ignored.

That's just not true. It may be true for some but not even close to being true even most of the time. Sex work is indeed a skilled service for many. Not all sex workers are active drug users who lean into cars saying "hey baby you lookin for a good time?" Or being forced underage into brothels in Thailand. It's a HUGE spectrum. highly paid escorts are not just underage warm bodies, just being It's so much more than just sitting there while being humped like in some lifetime movie.
But do continue to speak over real sex workers. This is feeling like mansplaining

Punters pay much more money for virgin 13-year-olds than for experienced 33-year-olds, it is indeed men purchasing/renting bodies and not skilled services.

treating themselves like a commodity
No, we are treating our services like a commodity. We aren't "selling our bodies" we are selling a service.

"so even if they do consent, it is probably not out of choice.)"

So not consent then.

Well what is it to you? Might be helpful to hear what you think it is.

What do the posters who think consent can be paid for image consent to be? Permission to use your body?

Is that really what consent means?

Prickly Well thank you for explaining.

And no, you're right I can't fully understand, but what you described sounds a bit different to "they asked and I thought it was easier to say yes". Maybe you are more accustomed and knew what the poster meant.

It's not consent then is it.

I would agree that if someone is trafficked, that is raped. If they are a prostitute by choice, then it is not rape. It is a transaction. They are treating themselves like a commodity.

(Although they may turn to prostitution because of drugs and other circumstances, so even if they do consent, it is probably not out of choice.)

It was all a long time ago, I'm grateful I can finally see what alot of it all was and I know enough to recognise it now and stand up for myself etc, things are all ok don't worry

Giles I hope you have some RL support and counciling. Doesn't sound like you're in a great place and I hope you can find the support that helps improve that.

Men pick vulnerable females for a reason, that's on them not you

Ha yes I was probably every birthday and Xmas rolled into one for any boyfriend who ended up with me.

What I lacked in looks and class I tried to make up for in other ways. I believed what they told me. If they needed money they could have it, never asked for or expected birthday presents or gifts of any kind. Never asked or questioned why I wasn't taken out. In fact you could disappear for a week or two and I'd just be worried about you and make excuses for you rather than be pissed off.

I agree with what you say 're gaslighting and emotional abuse being worse than anything else.

The being kept dangling is awful. The being lied to is awful. I still remenber one boyfriend being pissed off at me over something I said. I apologised so much for what I said. Except I had no idea what I had actually said. I asked friends of ours who told me what I'd said and I had no recollection of ever saying it it wasn't the kind of thing I've ever said in my life nor something that would ever come up in regular conversation. I know I never said it. Yet there I was sending text after text apologising and trying to drown my sorrows as I thought he was going to dump me.

Even now I've caught dp making stuff out that I just know I never said or did or whatever. It drove me far madder and made me far more angry than being beaten up by my brother as a kid growing up ever did. Violence is at least over when it's over. It's awful yea and painful obviously. But it was done and dusted til the next time. And you know you aren't going mad imagining it cos you have the bruises.

"Actually there are clients who can and do help with this by acting when they see evidence of coercion"

Can you give some examples of punter men who helped rape slaves escape?

I get daily news alerts on prostitution sent to my inbox and I don't see reports of punters acting like this, but perhaps you have access to sources I don't know about.

Nspcc states that abuse is equal in all classes. I was sexually abused my multipul men and a woman several times a week from when I can first remember until I was ten. We were poorish as I had a sp but she was professionally educated and employed so I guess we were lmc.

Agree saying it's rape isn't taking away agency from women (tut tut naughty women are allways to blame for disempowering women, where have we heard that before??). It's about criminalising what the punters are doing, buying consent is not consent given with free will. It's the men disempowering the women not other women by being honest about what those men are doing.

Giles, abuse is not comparable. Being honest about abuse in no way invalidates or insults what I went through as a child. In alot of ways the emotional abuse I suffered, the manipulation and gaslighting was worse than the sexual abuse and if others are honest about that it makes it easier for me to process that also, to find the words for why that was wrong. I also think you are being hard on yourself, saying you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think that's the case. Men pick vulnerable females for a reason, that's on them not you. And socialisation conditions is to think our bodies exist for male pleasure, and to know that we must appease men rather than risk further violence. The latter may help us survive physically but it effectively continues to condition us and disempower us by taking away the language we need to identify why it's men's behaviour that's wrong not ours. Social conditioning for females is a form of abuse all in itself. It primes us to be the perfect victims.

Men out adverts out for a free bed for the night and a hot meal in exchange for sex. Homeless women respond to these. They don't consent of free will, their consent is forced by lack of economic resources, and coersed by men preying on their vulnerability.

Prostitution is the same.

Although he told everyone we'd had sex anyway...

I did eventually wise up a bit. One time when a man old enough to know any better decided to buy me doubles all night then offer to walk me to my room.

He literally stripped naked climbed into my bed and honestly I have no idea why at that point sleeping as far onto the edge of possible seemed a better idea than telling him to fuck off I don't know.

Eventually I told him to leave and he told me i was much more fun when I was drunk.

This man had a dd believe it or not.

vestel

It's hard to explain as looking back now it was obvious but I have never been the kind of girl I thought guys went for. I'm not the slimmest or prettiest of people. And I was stupidly trusting of people. I don't think i really thought they would actually want to sleep with me until the point where it became glaringly obvious that was the intention.

I was also stupidly Incredibly trusting so whereas I never thought I was in danger apart from one time where I legged it, I still didn't want to risk having to find my own way home with little money no credit on my phone, no idea where I was, and it very much was a case of "I'd come this far it was probably the easiest thing to do" I had no way of knowing what would happen and at the time. I probably would have been fine as I said I blame myself for the most part because I never seemed to learn the bloody obvious. And yes I now do see the irony of feeling safer in a strangers bed than walking home alone at night

Plus some occasions my friend would be there too so I'd not want to leave them there on their own if they stayed I stayed.

It stupidly never really occured to me how id get back and I was kind of embarrassed at the same time too that id had sex with someone and yet didnt even know their address to call a taxi

Most of the time.i got myself back sometimes they did give me a lift or walk me home.

I would agree with that. We need to make sure that the women doing sex work are as safe as they can be, whatever their circumstances.

And where there has been trafficking, the police need to do more to target the traffickers and the pimps. Actually there are clients who can and do help with this by acting when they see evidence of coercion, so it's not entirely true that all men who go to prostitutes are rapists who don't care whether the woman has consented or not.

I mean in terms of May be some of these women need more protection than others? I would suggest that those women who are drug addicts, poor etc will be less able to give consent than those women who are doing it because they enjoy what they do, as some sex workers have said on here. Do we need to protect all women who do this (even the ones who don't want or need protection) or do concentrate on those who are the most vulnerable as in the addicts, trafficked women, pimped women etc.

@20nil, exactly! Do any girls grow up thinking, 'I really want to be a prostitute when I grow up'? And if our daughters did say that to us what would our reaction be? Absolute horror of course, I have 2 DDs, and I would want to know who the hell had put the idea in their heads??? I expect the same would be true for all of us.