Is there a name for this thing that seems to happen all the time on feminist threads? It happens on other subjects too,, but it's very noticeable on feminism.

Male violence - yes, most violence is committed by men.

Endearments from strangers are weird anyway, and generally anyone who uses endearments for strangers is unlikely to be thoughtful about their language.

The thread you are talking about was about people's direct reporting of their inner circle's use of endearments for children in the family initially though. It is pretty horrible to call people liars when they are simply responding by saying what they personally call their own children!

It is a good point that women are the ones using sweetie etc for their sons.

That does not mean that anyone reporting direct experience of a male family member calling a child mate is a liar because it doesn't fit the point of the thread. The OP was talking about her own husband. Other posters are surely equally entitled to post about their own direct experience.

I agree pointing out exceptions to a general trend is not always helpful, but it smacks of silencing to say women may never report that an example presented as "normal" isn't normal in all circles!

Addressing adult strangers with gendered endearments is offensive - but so is calling people liars if they post direct, personal, experience once which doesn't mirror the OP. It does put people off reading and posting to start a TAAT to say everyone is lying, rather than to say that the original post about endearments used for your own children wasn't really the issue and the wider issue is a general trend of using cutesy, infantalising endearments for adult women!

bert the only men in Yorkshire I have ever heard call a male 'love' are my dad to my brother in childhood, and my brother to his son.

It would not, and does not, happen anywhere else. But as I say - that's Yorkshire, not Derbyshire.

Copperbeech you seem intent on interpreting this as 'women want to be called mate, but mate is a disrespectful term so that's silly' - that's not what's being said.

I have never, ever, heard a man call another man 'love'.

Neither have I. I wonder if it's because a man using an affectionate term like this to another man could be vaguely interpreted as 'gay'/a come on etc. Which sounds ridiculous written down but I've known circles of men where having your sexuality questioned is the ultimate insult.

So a man to a man has to use a 'pat on the back' type term such as mate/buddy etc.

I don't think it is used less to woman than men

It is, though.

you want to be called "mate" more often?

to me, I am called it too often, it is disrespectful, it is something to tease someone with, my teens use it to me when being sarcastic, for example, in a semi affectionate way, sure, but it is not a nice term.

I have it used to me by strangers quite regularly, I don't think it is used less to woman than men, it is not a nice thing to say, it means anything from " I m doing my best to tolerate your incompetence" to "you are asking for a fight"

why insist that it is a sexist term when some people in some places see it as commonly used to both sexes. Why is it wrong to say that I disagree with you?

Why would you want it used to you anyway?

My friend replies "well men are probably too ashamed to report being a victim".

That's the stupidest thing I have heard in quite a while! As if women who are kept prisoners in basements are even able to report anything at all!

(And while there certainly are male rape victims who are too ashamed to report - not surprising, because most female rape victims feel exactly the same - most of those were raped by men.)

Women would have to be criminal masterminds to be able to avoid being caught at so many crimes that the crimes actually committed by women would match the number of crimes men go to prison for. Never mind matching the rate at which men commit crimes.

And if women are such clever masterminds, then the claims that women are so scarce at the top of all hierarchies because there just happen to be not enough clever women, are even more ridiculous.

(But I guess the misogynists will claim that women are secretly running the world. There once was an evil dictator who claimed the group of people he considered subhuman was running the world ... well, he was lying.)

Yes pigeon but people on MN are so dogmatic (that men never call other men love or women mate) it just grates my experiential cheese.

@ elfinpre your not even close it's 70/30 male/female convictions

Right, Copperbeech, I'll give it a go.

Men call one another 'mate', or variants. This can be done in a friendly way - or sometimes a menacing one, to imply strongly 'you are not my mate' - but most often, it's a man using it to a man he doesn't know, and implies parity and equivalency.

Men do not call women they don't know 'mate' - male mechanics, barstaff, retail workers, do not say 'what can I get you, mate' to women as they do men. Instead they use 'terms of endearment' to women such as love, sweetheart, darling. As do women to men and women they don't know.

The tendency for men to see men they don't know as mate, pal etc, and women they don't know as sweetheart, darling, love, suggests a certain imbalance in society which many people find problematic. Insisting that men and women in shops call other women 'mate', or that men do in fact call each other 'my darling' as they pull a pint, is nonsensical and seeks to deny there is a problem at all, which is itself a suspect strategy.

Does that help explain what people are bothered about?

so you want women to say mate, pal etc more often? i'm really struggling to follow what the issue is

We want names to be evenly applied. That's all.

I'm hazarding a guess that you don't think it matters but consider the following:

-terms applied to boys are often about boosting their strength and confidence: champ, little man, mate, sir
-terms for girls are often focused on looks and emphasise good proper behaviour: pretty, little madam, love, sweetie.

None of these are inherently bad but when applied consistently by pretty much all adults they paint a picture and have an effect on that child's expectations of him/herself.

If you watch the BBC iPlayer's "gender neutral classroom" episode 1 you'll see how the discussions on MN came about.

No, Copperbeech because you said you're 'struggling to follow what the issue is' - so I'm wondering why you want to talk about it, I guess.

because I am a feminist, and I want to understand what you are saying, but i don't, and I don't think it furthers the cause of feminism much if you tell someone who's experiences and opinions are different that their input is not valid and they should go away.

I have never, ever, heard a man call another man 'love'. Admittedly I live in Yorkshire not Derbyshire, so maybe it's different, but I do know it doesn't happen here.

Is it a variation of the "anecdotal" fallacy? "You used a personal experience or an isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence"

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

It's often much easier for people to believe someone's testimony as opposed to understanding complex data and variation across a continuum. Quantitative scientific measures are almost always more accurate than personal perceptions and experiences, but our inclination is to believe that which is tangible to us, and/or the word of someone we trust over a more 'abstract' statistical reality.

You still have not explained where the sexism is with the use of the word "mate" - I agree it is not a nice term, and normally used in a derogatory, even threatening way, but I have not experienced it being used in a sexist way.

No, Copperbeech because you said you're 'struggling to follow what the issue is' - so I'm wondering why you want to talk about it, I guess.

i'm really struggling to follow what the issue is

the issue certainly isn't that we want to be called 'mate' more often. Did you try to read the OP?

You seem to be missing the point. Which is you have the moral high ground already. Don't make yourself look stupid by being distracted by irelivant points such as if someone was/wasn't called 'bubbly boy'.

Maybe this isn't the thread for you, coppebeech

and why would that be exactly?

because my experience is different to yours?

Because my opinion is different to yours?

Is this a forum only for people with identical feelings, thoughts, experiences and opinions?

@jiggly why is it stupid and how does it support the argument? It doesn't.

You can pretty much always find the odd example of things happening to men that happen to women - e.g. in Derbyshire, a man in a shop would certainly call another man love. It doesn't remotely mean that there isn't a gendered problem whereby women are spoken to patronisingly. Same with violence.

Bubbly Boy is complete nonsense though. Obviously "it isn't impossible" but the fact it it doesn't and wouldn't get said.

If women are committing 50% of all the crimes then we are clearly evil geniuses. Men are just a bunch of masochists/show offs who want to get caught.

Maybe this isn't the thread for you, coppebeech.