Can we agree that women are entitled to bodily autonomy?

Slavery throughout history has treated humans not as persons, but as property

Generally they were treated as both people and property, actually. The US constitution counted slaves as 3 fifths of a person.

Why would it have to be in the UK? Personhood isn't related to being British, although that would explain many actions of the British Empire

Because th 2 posters above both referenced specifically the UK.

LadyMaryCrawley1922:

"Nobody asked why it [sc. why in UK law personhood begins at birth] is, they sneerily kept insisting that it was merely my opinion."

(If I may ...)
I wonder what your opinion is, Mary. Does the law get it right or not?

Btw, it seems not to follow from the fact that people have different opinions on morality that morality is just a matter of opinion. There's a bit more to it than that, maybe? Possibly not just a question of taste? Do you agree?

Woman can do whatever they like, however if they then have a baby born with lasting effects from their shitty choices while pregnant they have zero right to complain about how hard it is when they're the reason their child is suffering

Please do tell us all when personhood began at some other time than birth, in the UK, showing the relevant laws at the time.

Why would it have to be in the UK? Personhood isn't related to being British, although that would explain many actions of the British Empire.

Slavery throughout history has treated humans not as persons, but as property. There are cases around non-human persons such as apes in captivity. The possibility of AI evolving into another form of non human person is much discussed.

How is personhood straightforward?

But there is nothing stupid about asking why that is. It's a complex philosophical question

Nobody asked why it is, they sneerily kept insisting that it was merely my opinion.

Personhood is not an objective fact, the law around this changes. Legally in the UK, yes, personhood begins at birth

It changes? Please do tell us all when personhood began at some other time than birth, in the UK, showing the relevant laws at the time.

brand I wonder if anyone on here is anti-abortion though?
I'm pro-choice. I think the law in England as it stands seems right to me. Up to 24 weeks. Or longer if the mother's life is in danger or the baby would have a very severe disability and very poor quality of life.
I would be opposed to a change in the law allowing abortion up to the time of birth in other cases.
Having said that there would still be individual cases that would be difficult, e.g. if the pregnant woman didn't realise she was pregnant in time.

Personhood is not an objective fact, the law around this changes. Legally in the UK, yes, personhood begins at birth.

But there is nothing stupid about asking why that is. It's a complex philosophical question.

Your morality and ethics are individual to you and have no bearing on when personhood is obtained.

It is an objective fact in terms of the law. Not in terms of morality and ethics.

mary the tone of your posts is very condescending to anyone who has a different viewpoint from you

No, they are condescending to those that think I am arguing my own viewpoint, when what I am stating is an objective fact.

Yes, adults develop deeper and more nuanced arguments

You haven't understood the basics that the kids have yet, so you're not nearly ready for the adult nuanced ones.

There is no nuance to the law. You are not a person until you are born. There is no nuance, no grey area, and no opinion on that FACT.
Once you've got that, then you can talk with the adults.

We as a society etc...

As a society/culture do not agree on women's entitlement to bodily autonomy, which is why (1) rape remains so poorly reported and prosecuted, (2) there are still abortion protesters outside medical facilities which provide abortions and (3) men don't see themselves as part of these discussions except the ones who want to shut them down.

mary the tone of your posts is very condescending to anyone who has a different viewpoint from you.
The people you disagree with are not stupid. They are intelligent women (and the occasional man).
You may have a very firmly held belief about this, but this isn't an easy issue.
There is a view in terms of the law, but it's also a very difficult moral, ethical issue.
Please stop belittling people because they disagree with you.

Mary,

Yes, adults develop deeper and more nuanced arguments. You logic suits a reception aged kit perfectly, totally black and white.

Please explain to me what happens during birth that suddenly makes this being a person that deserves to have some rights?

You actually have to ask? They are BORN. They become a separate being. They take their very first breath.
Is this all not stunningly obvious? My 4 year old can understand this.

I was providing a reply to a previous post about equality, my main point being, is true autonomy and in control of our body inclusive of abortion if that choice is influenced by partners, parents, work pressures,
I sadly don't think abortion is always a free choice because of other people/factors
This could be another thread tho, I don't want to go completely off topic on an tangent.

Missy I should think her mums issue was the presence of the child in her life for the rest of her life rather than physical issues around pregnancy?

Even if we lived in a society with free childcare etc becoming a parent would still massively impact your life and would likely still be something a parent would worry about for their teenage child.

In that case, the amount of physical affection you allow is for you and your partner to negotiate between you.

Sadly Missymoo that kind of equality is a chimera. Of course having children will impact lives, and those who are not established in their own lives will be worse impacted. I don't fully grasp your pov if you are saying women should both be unimpacted by childcare and be forced to continue with pregnancies in some circumstances.

I have a friend who had an abortion when she was younger and said the reason was her mum said she should because if you don't "your life is over" you won't get a good job type of thing- this isn't equality, the fact women have abortions to enter education, to get a good job- this is shit and shows the crap way pregnant women are treated and pressurised

**^^And i feel it's wrong. I think women should have the same autonomy in law, that men have. It's a fundamental part of equal human-hood.

I don't think abortion is always the way forward for equality- for instance if a woman has to have an abortion for lack of money, support, fear of not progressing at work, pressure from partner etc... this isn't equality it's highlighting a problem with the way women are treated during pregnancy and as mothers

@RantingIdiot I'm not being disingenuous- was a genuine question. Was just thinking from my own POV where DP has hugged me, I've not really responded cos I'm about to do something else or just don't feel like a hug and he's said 'oh you're so unloving'.