Other ways men dominate space, apart from the physical

Thinking back to school, the entire playground was dominated by a game of football, with the girls skirting the edges playing skipping and elastic games.

NobleGiraffe- I had a discussion about this at a primary school I'm involved with recently. They have a relatively small playground, most of which is marked out as a sports pitch. Some of the older boys (and no girls) have been chosen to lead football games at break and lunch time which means that anyone who does not want to play football has very little space to play (and no alternative organised games). The head teacher's answer to my questions was that there is nothing stopping girls playing football and (in the same breath) that'boys need their football so that they are refreshed and ready for the next lessons. My observation is that only a handfull of girls ever join in and I know that some of the girls have said they don't like lunch time because there is nothing to do. But apparently I don't understand what boys need. Is there any wonder that boys grow in to young men who think they have a right to dominate any space?

When we have men from Maintenance in our building, they are always barging in and out and leaving doors open, when there are signs everywhere saying to keep doors closed (there are animals in the building).
Last year, one contractor jammed an automatic door open that you need a key card for. I had to ask him to close it and use the other entrance and got a load of harrumphing, followed by pressing the rear door buzzer about eight times in an hour because he wanted to get in and refused to go round the front. Male colleague spoke to him the next day and the twattishness stopped.
Another Maintenance guy regularly uses my workroom as a thoroughfare, despite being asked not to on at least two occasions.

I had a season ticket for my local football club all through my teens. Walking down to the ground was always an experience. Drunk men everywhere shouting and chanting. Once a team had come to us, and if they won they were going to get promoted. I've never seen so many drunk men just openly undoing their flies and pissing all over a town. Also, the walk back would be an experience of it was one of the big teams and my smaller team had caused an upset. I had one man threaten to punch me once, purely because my team has just beaten his and I was wearing my shirt as I walked past.
Oh and the goady chants of 'shhhh' from opposing fans -as if it were a bad thing that our fans weren't making a load of noise and were just watching the game.

DJBaggySmalls

Not just interrupting, automatically going to 'shut up!'.

At my work consisting of a mostly female team , we can be having a meeting or just chatting in our space and guys from other depts will come in and interupt or talk across us very loudly. Its open plan which doesnt help but still. A couple of times i have said excuse us we will be with you when weve finished and the other women are

There have been several studies on this, and they all show that men dominate the conversation/space even when they are a minority in a group. Its one reason sexual trauma therapy groups are single sex.

some info in this article;
nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google-chief-blasted-for-repeatedly-interrupting-female-government-official/?mcubz=1

I think (honestly) it starts quite early, probably in toddlerhood with all of the socialisation stuff that we often refer to here. He's a boy! He's loud, boisterous, he runs and takes up space. She's a girl, she should be quieter, etc. I've read accounts of researchers monitoring play areas to find girls on the outside or using the equipment less, or being told to make way for boys, or similar. I think this is all quite insidious and it becomes an ingrained habit in adulthood. So teenage boys might 'talk the talk', but they are probably unaware of behaviours that are simply natural to them.

I had exactly the same experience while in a children's hospital with my poorly toddler. Male visitors would come in and change the TV channel in the bed bay from CBeebies / cartoons onto sports / news and turn up the volume.

They would also use the ward kitchen ( which was for resident parents) to make themselves a coffee then get stroppy with the nurses when they pointed out that hot drinks were not allowed on the ward. Which was on a sign right in front of them above the kettle.

I spent a fair amount of time as an inpatient during my last pregnancy. Some of the men on the antenatal ward had absolutely no regard for the privacy, dignity or wellbeing of the women in there. Sprawled out on the beds, using patient toilets, pushing in the queue for the food trolley, turning the volume up loud on the individual tvs, having loud phone conversations at the end of other patient's beds.

It was usually men who came in with women who weren't poorly as such, but coming in for their partners to be induced. They treated it like a jolly day out with zero regard for the unwell patients on the wards, some on drips, others on oxygen etc and clearly ill. I was moved to a private room in the end otherwise I would have discharged myself against medical advice.

QueenNefertitty indeed it does although I'm not a mother I do this with my brothers though; the elder of the two is 15 and now tells me of challenging sexism amongst his friends. I've talked to them both, though particularly the elder, about sexism generally and various experiences (for example street harassment) - I'm not sure if it's helped coming from me or I'm relatively lucky they're receptive to it!

@nolove and @horopu -

interesting as single mothers of sons (me too) - how we challenge this behaviour, without seeming like a "lone female voice" to our children.

I.e- not just reinforcing feminist behaviours with our sons, but ensuring they understand this isn't just "their mum" doing this from a "mum" perspective - and it getting lost in the wider "my mums says/does xyz" context, but has broader social implications outside of our family unit

Does that make sense? (Albeit slightly off topic!)

Whereas of course QueenNefertitty harassment is about power and control over women, shown by how often it turns aggressive if women don't respond compliantly such as in the link I posted.

I agree Horopu and it sounds like you're doing it excellently. I'm sure your sons will be splendid people who oppose misogyny when they come across it. You challenging sexist behaviour if you see it in them (even if benign) will I've no doubt help in that regard.

Sorry- meant to say- the traditional male "ownership" of the public space is very much ingrained in my mothers psyche. accepting harassment etc as inevitable- even desirable.

I remember pre-baby, Some slime eyeballed me when we were shopping and said something obscene under his breath... DM's response was a wistful "ohhhh men used to look at me
Like that"

@littlemisssweetness fair enough. I think it interests me cos I'm now a single mum, and I realise if I don't challenge their behaviour then they might not make that important transition from teenage selfishness.

I am very easy going and often willing to let things slide. They certainly don't hate females but growing up in a patriarchal society it's important to me that I challenge their behaviour. Plenty of people don't hate women but go along with the status quo which disadvantages us. Sorry to wander off topic.

My DM when I was first breastfeeding my DS was very worried about me feeding in public/not using a cover because "what if men are watching?". She was worried about me receiving abuse, but also them feeling uncomfortable.

a year in, she's been with me while I breastfeed with my son in the carrier, walking through the shopping centre, glaring and tutting at anyone (male or female) who looks vaguely affronted.

She means well, but crikey I wish she'd find a middleground between repressed and fighty....

The harassment in the first place being dominating space, making sure women know they're in male space (in public) and exist for their amusement, the violent abuse at her challenging this a reminder that women should shut up and politely take harassment not ever object.

Things like this possibly go beyond dominating space but are a way of exerting their power over women and girls in public as well as being incredibly threatening: www.standard.co.uk/news/london/cabaret-compere-told-she-deserves-to-be-raped-after-standing-up-to-vile-catcalling-at-white-city-a3536886.html

@Horopu tbh what you've described is pretty typical teenage stuff rather then male hating female stuff...

That's called poor work attitude not masculinity. The girls at the front desk at my gym are constantly sitting around chatting. They even have the cheek to look annoyed rather than embarrassed when you walk up to the counter for help.

Thinking back to school, the entire playground was dominated by a game of football, with the girls skirting the edges playing skipping and elastic games.

@BillBrysonsBeard quite possibly. I never did it in my parents' cars, I was a stereotypical 'good girl' so who knows.

I also find them lying in my bed while they wait for something to cook (my room is right next to the kitchen). I kick them and and mutter about personal space. I do have the most comfortable bed in the house so I think it is mainly laziness rather than anything else.

I know that all three of my children have a lot of respect for me generally, for what I have achieved professionally and for how I have looked after them.

Online gaming and gaming in general. Google gamer gate.

Women gamers regularly get harassed up to rape threats, it's behind a screen. I have gamed all my life and beaten the boys at their own game literally. Some of them are completely threatened by women gamers.Some women gamers have recorded the harassment and posted on YouTube.

Some women have made all women clans, I belong to some all women groups but refuse to actually exclusively game with only other women. I can see why they do it though, you need a thick skin.

Going in to an open game lobby, the crap you hear is unreal. Last time it happened to me which was a couple of months ago I asked the harasser if they would like men to speak to their mother, sister, aunt like that. How would he feel knowing they were harassed.

Unfortunately there is a small section of women gamers who do use their sexuality to attract followers on twitch or YouTube. It's a major issue.

To be fair, some of the most inconsiderate and noisy behaviour I have seen on trains has often come from groups of young women (particularly if they are drinking).

But I think the point about men acting in a particularly dominating way in their "workspace" is interesting. Generally I think women don't tend to act in the same way at work. It cuts across a range of careers too - men in professional jobs seem more likely to shout or lose their temper. I have experienced men at work acting in a way that can be quite stressful and intimidating, to the extent that a younger female PA had to take time off work because she couldn't cope with the way in which one particular individual regularly spoke to her.

My daughters all do that too whether in my car or my husband's, I think that's a teenage thing rather than a man thing tbh