Sarah Champion

The fact that Muslim men have been disproportionately 'caught' / sentenced could be taken as proof of racism. I mean, surely no one actually believes the police aren't racist towards non-white communities? But the police ignored the problem for years because they did not want to be accused of racism.

There is no doubt in my mind that white men perpetuate these kind of crimes to the same extent or more.

I was a victim of similar abuse in my teen years by white men.

There was someone on another thread recently who works in a CSA survivor charity saying that it's not a racial problem, it's a man problem. The fact that Muslim men have been disproportionately 'caught' / sentenced could be taken as proof of racism. I mean, surely no one actually believes the police aren't racist towards non-white communities?

Also I do wonder if non-white men might need to coordinate more in order to abuse, due to the greater suspicions they are under, being non-white. White men are just being men doing 'what men do' with loose girls, so can be more loosely organised with it all. And 'gangs' are easier to infiltrate / gather evidence towards maybe?

I think Sarah Champion was wrong and I'm glad she was called out for it. The more people class this as a race problem the more the true deep issues with have with CSA and treatment of young girls are ignored.

But the men in these cases are predominantly Pakistani / Muslim. That is an undeniable truth. I may be completely naive but I thought that being a feminist was about the rights of women and girls. Not protecting evil abusers. If the abuse was being perpetrated by gangs of far right white men the response would be different.

You know what it occurs to me that I don't know the answer to an important question with regards to this issue. Are middle eastern men more or less likely to groom and rape underage girls?

I mean obviously it happens but is it out of proportion with the rest of the male population? Not that any proportion is acceptable mind you. It's just that if it is then it's not racist to name the problem and in fact absurd not to. If it's about the same or even less than then yes it's racist to single out these men.

In fact it's a bit racist not to hold every man to the same standard required of our society on the grounds of race/culture. As if these groups are somehow inferior and cannot be held to the same standard of behaviour.

But the men in these cases are predominantly Pakistani / Muslim.
So there is a problem. But still it's being denied, years on, even though it's still happening.
I'm just wondering what the reaction would be ( from feminists ) if these gangs were mostly white men, trans, or anything other than what they actually are.

I think the problem lies in the juxtaposition of various cards in all the headlines: -sexual abuse - race. As feminists, we are acutely aware of how carefully language needs to be handled. If someone says school girls are bad at physics, we rightly rail against the implication (even though as a group they do less well than boys).

Here, we have groups of a/ men b/dark skinned individuals (Muslim, Pakistani?) who target and rape white girls. The racial element has to be important: it's the common denominator. When police and others investigate these crimes they need to profile the criminals. When they decide on how to prosecute, they need to know if it will try for a conviction on just child abuse/rape or whether the race element constitutes a hate crime.

Was Champion right to say “Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls"? I've been mulling this over for the last day or so, which is why I came on here for further clarification and debate about the topic. I think I favour the answer: no, she wasn't.

When some feminists say 'men rape' - and then qualify it as a group statement etc. well, I can understand why people get upset, even as I understand the logic of using group statements within feminist debates. So when Champion uses the same formula, she may strictly be correct in what she says but she is totally misunderstanding the audience (look at how the Sun quoted her words to justify the "Muslim problem"). When we deal out the race and abuse cards side-by-side, whether we like it or not the message assimilated in our minds is: Pakistani men rape our girls. This message is deeply wrong and the problem lies in the formulation of the phrases we use.

I agree enoughisenough12 - but what is equally depressing is the lack of response / interest this thread has received. & yes. I know this topic is never as busy as chat or aibu, but I doubt this thread would have generated much more interest even there. Feminists are remarkable quiet on this issue, & that for me, is more worrying than a male politician shutting down debate.

I really thought that we were moving to a position where it was possible to have an open debate about sexual abuse and organised groups of predominantly Muslim men - and then in parachutes Corbyn (criticising yet another woman MP) and exemplifying all the values which stopped people in those communities from tackling this abuse.

It's yet another example of the misogyny that is so ingrained in the labour party - and Corbyn just doesn't get it. Given an opportunity to stand up for vulnerable girls, he protects the male abusers. So depressing.

Sexual offending against women and children presents in any number of contexts. This is one of them. We have seen it now in oxford, Bradford, Rotherham and that's just off the top of my head. Certain ideas about girls and women prevalent within certain cultures influenced both the offenders and those who should have acted against them and protected the girls. The refusal to acknowledge and examine this is really just another way of saying girls and women matter less than, for example, the ability of certain communities to continue to ignore the behaviour and attitudes of some of their members.
No surprise to see Corbyn taking this line. I think he is somewhat confused as to whether girls and women are still allowed to exist - isn't acknowledging their existence offensive to some far more important group of people?

She's absolutely right & Corbyn is a complete arse.

Jeremy Corbyn being grilled by Michael Crick on CH 4 news now about this issue. He didn't do himself any favours. He doesn't want to demonise people. It's all about 'people's safety'. Appalling

The tone of debate veers towards not debating the racist element at all Yes. What is the point of wringing our hands and saying it's all about men and their entitlement. This a particular scenario which needs focused examination. More work needs to be done to protect vulnerable children from abusers wherever they attack. That means naming those situations eg abusers in care homes, abusers who target children in sport, abusers who run grooming gangs.

MrGHardy I'm talking about the culture of sexist masculinity. It broaches all races and all ages.

I like males. I like their biological function; but I could never be in the position, nor would I want to, to force them into sex without their consent.

Whether there are or not I don't see how you can ignore the racist element of these men's crimes

I'm not suggesting we do but the tone of debate makes it all about ethnicity, that's my problem

The tone of debate veers towards not debating the racist element at all. Glasgow, and I'm sure other cities , acknowledge the problem of gangs of young white picking on young Asian men and vice versa. Both are prosecuted as aggravated hate crimes.

This is where we are today. Some things quite simply cannot be said or your career is over. Even if they happen to be 100% true.
I have no sympathy for Champion though. She ignored this for years and only began to speak out when she judged that the public mood had swung far enough in the right direction. She forgot that her lefty peers hadn't swung with that mood though.
Labour, in particular, Momentum still operate the hierarchy of victim hood in which white school girls are near the bottom.
I'm reposting a message from another thread and this link
inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/muslim-community-still-denial-rochdale/ Is Yasmin a racist?

Elendon Disagree. Some cultures certainly have varying degrees of this phenomenon. In addition, if you say it is regardless of culture, then there is no hope for any change. That seems poignant and means all this is fruitless?

Meanwhile the tone of the debate just stirs up the racial tensions even further.

I totally disagree. It has nothing to do with race, it's all to to with men and their entitlement. And herein lies the problem.

Men's violence towards women. Regardless of their race or colour.

Whether there are or not I don't see how you can ignore the racist element of these men's crimes.

I'm not suggesting we do but the tone of debate makes it all about ethnicity, that's my problem.
I think the bigger problem is mens sexual violence towards women and girls and we need to tackle that.
In these cases I'm more alarmed about social workers claiming the girls were making a "lifestyle choice" and not intervening when drunk/drugged girls were in the company of much older men.
That's why the offenders ethnicity is low down on the list. We can't tackle this until we start taking females seriously, start taking red flags seriously and start prosecuting all sex offending as a serious matter. In my opinion. I don't think talking to Pakistani or Muslim communities about this will help one jot because these men know what they are doing is wrong and they don't care.
Meanwhile the tone of the debate just stirs up the racial tensions even further.

Look, these are specific targets and specific men doing the targeting. It absolutely needs addressing for what it is in terms of culture. It's easily solved but ignoring it by claiming that others do it too simply fails to tackle the enormous problem head on.

Putting your head under the blankets doesn't make the problem go away.

Outrage naturally when a priest says he won't go to the police on confessions regarding paedophilia.

Quite frankly I don't care whose precious feelings are hurt regarding this. Child sexual abuse has to stop now.

She didn’t resign for talking about grooming. She resigned because she said in a notoriously racist paper that there was a “Muslim problem”. That's interesting. I have heard that Trevor Philips said the same thing. So how come people understood what he said and not hers or was the wording different. To be fair Trevor Phillips decided not to single out Pakistani men and did say it would be wrong to do so.

The ethnicity of the offenders is quite low down on the list to me and a way of 'othering' the offenders

The offenders were "othering" the victims. Are there organised gangs of white men targeting Asian or Afro-Caribean girls? Whether there are or not I don't see how you can ignore the racist element of these men's crimes.

No I don't think it's irrelevant.

Bartholins do you think the fact all of these men are brown skinned and were targeting white girls is irrelevant? They are paedophiles and racists.

Eighteen people found guilty over Newcastle sex grooming network

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/09/newcastle-sex-grooming-network-operation-shelter?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

She didn't say they were Muslim, she said they were Pakistani. Many were not.