Sarah Champion

I mean evidence of grooming used to be on Jeremy Kyle ALL THE TIME. Hiding in plain sight. And there was never any suggestion anyone had a problem with it.

Make the bloke non-white on the other hand...

And the people who try to raise abuse by white men?...

Oh yeah, they don't. Which doesn't equal that it's not happening.

One was consciously ignored for fear of racism. One is unconsciously ignored because it's embedded in our culture and we don't see it as wrong in the same way. Both happen.

One poster has objected to these men being "othered" yet that is exactly what these men are doing to their victims- white trash who don't matter. Male entitlement with extra added racism.

YY.

While I am always a bit  at anyone who writes for the Sun I still regret the fact that yet again men on the left are targeting women who speak out and failing to address the real issue in this instance which is the rape and abuse of girls.

This.

Just to clarify batteries - I did not say that your experience was' irrelevant' or that your claims are false - I just disagreed with your perspective.
I did not 'shout down victims' - I don't know anyone's personal history one here and I certainly didn't state that that 'such a thing doesn't exist among British values'. Sexual abuse is prevalent in all ethnic groups, cultures, class, sexes etc and I was thinking about the range of recent court cases and enquiries into abuse in this country when I wrote..

I'm not quite sure how you interpreted what I said in this way? My comments weren't meant as a dismissal of anyone's experiences, they were a contribution to a really difficult and sensitive discussion and obviously I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought I had. My apologies.

I was trying to highlight that I think as a society we massively underestimate the scale of sexual offending against women and girls and one of the ways this happens is by building narratives about offenders being monsters/bogeyman.

Yes I agree, but it's possible to make that point without dismissing the cultural issues inherent in these specific situations.

It's very upsetting as a survivor of abuse as a teen by older men to be told my experience is irrelevant and that my claims - that this kind of thing is insanely prevalent amongst white communities too, and a blind eye routinely turned - are false. By people with what actual experience of it?

No one has the right to deny your own experience. That's not the point here. You are trying to claim that there isn't a pattern with this specific type of abuse and the reaction to it. All the evidence suggests there is. Rotherham, Rochdale and other places did hush it up because of the racial element. And that is wrong.

lass I don't know what your problem is with me on this thread but what I actually said was The ethnicity of the offenders is .... a way of 'othering' the offenders so society can continue to pretend that sexual abuse of children is a rare thing.

It's not about being offended by the othering at all, I was trying to highlight that I think as a society we massively underestimate the scale of sexual offending against women and girls and one of the ways this happens is by building narratives about offenders being monsters/bogeyman. I think that's why there is so much focus on the background of these men and so little on sexual exploitation as a whole.

I'm trying to be as clear as I can, hopefully you can now stop snarking at me.

Or did they ignore it for years because no one gives a crap about 14 year old drop out / loose / lifestyle slags being the sex toys of older men?

Both. Read the official enquiry reports. There was a council culture of being scared to be perceived as racist. people who tried to raise it got shut down. Sorry, it's indisputable that this played a role in the abuse continuing for so long.

Great posts by batteries and seeing. Seeing said exactly what I was trying to articulate but better, thank you.

enough have a look at the tone of reporting around the Adam Johnson case to see how white offenders are treated.

It's very upsetting as a survivor of abuse as a teen by older men to be told my experience is irrelevant and that my claims - that this kind of thing is insanely prevalent amongst white communities too, and a blind eye routinely turned - are false. By people with what actual experience of it?

It could be being perpetrated by your next door neighbour for all you know, and shouting down victims and claiming that such a thing doesn't exist among British values is not behaviour that is likely to open your eyes.

I understand that it is a men issue - and I also see how covering this without stereotyping is so problematic. But that's what got us into this mess in the first place - there is so much evidence that communities, social services, the police and politicians all knew about these incidents but, for a variety of reasons including fear of being called racist, it wasn't tackled and groups of vulnerable young women were left to suffer.

And I strongly disagree batteriesallgone with this 'The abuse of young girls of any colour by older white men who are 'clean' in all other respects is rarely met with outrage' I think it generally IS met with outrage and condemnation.

I don't know what the 'solution' is - certainly education and the unashamed promotion of British values. While I am always a bit at anyone who writes for the Sun I still regret the fact that yet again men on the left are targeting women who speak out and failing to address the real issue in this instance which is the rape and abuse of girls.

'rather than saying hmmm what a convenient cover for abandoning those girls. Not even just abandoning but judging and belittling.'

So true. A very convenient cover indeed for deciding that those girls were trash who deserved no better.

I am so very unsurprised to hear that those men subjected their own wives to a life of hell behind closed doors. Absolutely right to say that this is a male violence problem first and foremost

I can't imagine how Sarah Champion thought any good could come of writing in The Sun. Such a filthy rag

Jesus, Corbyn is such a fucking wet blanket.

'The judge banned press coverage during the trial and no national media covered it following the convictions of the gang of white men.'

It was covered in the national press at the time, and compared to Rotherham.

I am not surprised the Corbyn has done this. For over 15 years people have tried to deflect this, to down play it, to call racist and islamophobe to anybody who did to raise the subject, and shamefully even to the parents of some of these children.

Both online and in the real world I'm afraid one thing that all of these people have in common is that they were left wing. I have never seen anybody from the right either online or in the real world do this.
Of course not everybody on the left did this, but everybody that did do it was on the left.
It shameful.

This was discussed on the Jeremy Vine Show on Radio 2 yesterday. His guests for the discussion were Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and Dr Taj Hargey, who is an Imam. Both were very clear that this is a serious and on-going problem and that what the perpetrators have in common is that they are Muslim, and "are brown". They both saw race and religion as being at the centre of this, and both agreed with what Sarah Champion said, and that she was right to say it. This needs to be discussed.

I think part of the difficulty in discussing this, apart from the reluctance to name faith and ethnicity/culture as key, is the failure to name to acknowledge that violence is male. We need to be able to name the problem first of all as male violence. This is first and foremost about misogyny which is more openly expressed in the faith and cultural backgrounds to which those particular men belong. But if we try to pretend that misogyny doesn't exist in white British circles, then we can't even start to talk about this.

Yesterday, Yasmin said that she had spoken to the wives of some of the men convicted in Rotherham, maybe, can't remember, and that they all had been routinely maritally raped by those men.

We need to start talking about male violence towards women and girls.

The vast majority of child rapists in this country are white men. If you refuse to acknowledge this reality and talk about white men, then you're insisting that their victims don't count. That they aren't important enough to care about*

No one here had said anything remotely like that.

The white population of the UK is 87% , 92% in Scotland and those figures will be skewed by a small number of English cities so it would be rather surprising if most criminals in the UK were not white.

One poster has objected to these men being "othered" yet that is exactly what these men are doing to their victims- white trash who don't matter. Male entitlement with extra added racism.

Something like 87% of our society are white so white anything will comprise "the vast majority" of anything. The question of are any demographic more or less likely to commit child abuse I still cannot answer.

A curious comparison I'd like to point out if we're going to equate this to religion is that we're all over it when abuse is uncovered within Christian churches, why do Muslims get a pass?

I'll also make a guess as I don't have figures for it but sex crimes go up massively when men outnumber women so an unchecked migration of which the vast majority are men what do people think is going to happen?

I'm not against immigration, and maybe we should be making sure that women enjoy an equal opportunity to come here otherwise we're just loading the dice against women in general.

It isn't a Muslim nor a Pakistani issue.

It is men from tiny little backwaters, in this case from Pakistan, where they treat women like it is the dark ages, to feel superior.
None of these men would have been educated nor from a community which gives a toss about women. Therefore they are quite easy to identify.

we can address this by educating people, quite aggressively from a young age, or later if they come to the uk later.

The uk shouldn't allow such big ghettos to form and local councils can do something about this.

I would also ban any new religious schools from opening, Muslim, Christian whatever and for those that are already open keep close tabs on what is being taught.

an entire culture where this is seen as the norm

Like white British culture you mean?

The abuse of young girls of any colour by older white men who are 'clean' in all other respects is rarely met with outrage. That is my experience. It's treated as the girls wanted to grow up too soon the silly things, oooh aren't they such flirts, he's just sowing his seeds before he settles down blah blah.

As soon as the men have an undesirable characteristic - non-white, involved with other crime like drugs, etc suddenly it's shocking and terrible.

Makes me sick to be honest.

Sisterhoodis % wise as well?

And there is a difference between individuals being sick and thus attracted to children and an entire culture where this is seen as the norm. That's something you can address. Finding out individuals is much harder. Not that nothing should be done, but to liken them is unproductive as they require different solutions.

Is that true though derxa?

Or did they ignore it for years because no one gives a crap about 14 year old drop out / loose / lifestyle slags being the sex toys of older men?

And then when they finally had to act it was all oh but I didn't want to be racist... and everyone feels sorry for them, PC gorn mad etc, rather than saying hmmm what a convenient cover for abandoning those girls. Not even just abandoning but judging and belittling.

The vast majority of child rapists in this country are white men. If you refuse to acknowledge this reality and talk about white men, then you're insisting that their victims don't count. That they aren't important enough to care about.

Rotherham was exclusively Muslim men. And got national press. There was a similar case in Yorkshire at the same time where the perpetrators were white and the girls from various. BAME communities. The judge banned press coverage during the trial and no national media covered it following the convictions of the gang of white men.

This is why Sarah Champion was required to resign. She ignores the vast majority of perpetrators and erased a huge number of child victims in order to go with dog whistle racism in one of the most racist publications in the US.

Framing CSE as a 'Muslim problem' is no different than any of the garbage Trump has come up with about migrants. You don't get to play the racism card and then whine when you're held accountable for your actions.