Sarah Champion

Cross post

You misrepresent what Frouby said. It sounds like she knows quite a lot about what happened in Rotherham. Perhaps listen to her?

But it is true. And no amount of word play gets away from that. Pakistani men of muslim origin raped white, British girls in Rotherham and that is a problem.

I do understand what you are saying. We can't say all but no one did. And its not just a problem because the men were doing it. It was a problem because no one dared discuss or take action because it was Pakistani men of a muslim background. They hid behind the racism of others. They were untouchable for many, many years because of their ethnicity. For years they got away with it because they were Pakistani men from a muslim background.

And let me tell you something else. The Pakistani community knew it was going on. They dismissed it because it was white, british girls not nice Pakistani girls from good families.

I remember being in a taxi with a regular taxi driver a few years ago. He lived a few doors up from me. He sent food around at ramamdan. Put my bins out after an airport run one year. Smiled and said hello. His dcs were in my dds class. His wife talked kids at the school gate with me.

He mentioned the abuse cases. Said how horrific it all was. How nice families don't do that. And how horrified he was by it all. I agreed with him. He went on to say how horrific the shame was that had been brought on his community. How sad he was for his community. How the men involved had gone too far. How they should have been more careful. And again how much shame had been brought on his community.

Not our community. Or the community. Or the rotherham community.

And that's the overwhelming feeling I get from the Pakistani community in Rotherham. That it's a terrible thing that shame has been brought on their community. Not that it's a terrible thing that has happened to children.

She didn't make that statement though did she? It was qualified, and in context. She was describing something specific which is recognised as a sexual abuse problem among other sexual abuse problems, and the reaction to it.

You misunderstand me. I meant to say that 'Pakistani men rape white girls' is a statement that groups Pakistani men into a single class. The statement in a sense may strictly be accurate, but obviously smears ALL Pakistani men. We can't be using these generalisations.

Good post Frouby.

There are cultural issues involved with some of these men. I don't know how you can deny that. It is a difficult conversation and we have to be extra careful not to stereotype or give ammunition to racists, but do you honestly think there is no difference for women and girls between living here or living in Kandahar or Karachi? These men may or may not have been born abroad, but their parents likely were.

Flatpacker where did I mention class in my post? Or even allude to it?

It's not about class. It's about race. It's about what racism is and what it isnt. It isn't racist to say men of Pakistani muslim background raped white, British girls in Rotherham for a number of years and it was ignored by the authorities for fear of appearing racist.

It would be racist to say 'all/most/many Pakistanis of muslim background raped white, British girls in Rotherham' because they didn't. A small minority did. Many of that minority won't ever be prosecuted because their victims are in an impossible position. Some are still with their abusers. Some have children by their abusers. Some will be too scared to come forward after the honour killing in our town of one young victim who dared to speak out to her abusers.

It's not a class thing at all. Some of the girls were from 'troubled' familes. I know personally some that were just normal families whatever that means.

But it's not about class at all.

Yes Stig.

I think for me this boils down to - are young girls not living near British Pakistani communities at less risk than those living near to such communities?

I honestly believe that young girls that fit the description of white trash are at such a high risk of sexual abuse everywhere that the only sensible denominator is that the perpetrators are male.

I didn't know one girl in my acquaintances of young troubled drop outs in my teens who wasn't being sexually abused. Most are of course trapped now in the cycle of dependancy on abusive men.

This isn't a problem of how one community sees young chavvy females, white or not. It's a problem of how the whole of the UK sees them.

Luckily all is fine now, but if we can't have a discussion about people who wish us actual harm, and want to rape because we don't fit their narrow definition of honour then we really lack any sense of self preservation.

I agree. And the culturally relativistic argument of "different ideas of honour" has actually been used as (mostly unsuccessfully) a defence in criminal sexual assault cases in both this country and other western countries. And that is wrong.

I think we've heard plenty about the failing liberals who put the blinkers on for fear of being labelled a racist)

No. Because people on this thread and liberal people of my acquaintance still don't really believe that actually happened. And people who know it did will keep pointing out that it did so it isn't allowed to happen again. And if it is swept under the carpet, the far right will take advantage. It needs to be handled very carefully, but many people would still just like to ignore it and dismiss it because it's a difficult subject.

Frouby - you keep making class statements. In the public sphere, it is impossible to talk about groups like you do without people taking it the wrong way. No one has problems with Pakistani men. A very small minority of Pakistani men are involved in grooming and raping young white girls. Their motivation is racist, as you say. These men are steeped in their cultural expectations of what white girls are like and have taken that to an appalling extreme of interpretation.

There SHOULD be a quality debate. We SHOULD be talking about race and culture (in fact, it feels like this is rarely out of the news: I think we've heard plenty about the failing liberals who put the blinkers on for fear of being labelled a racist). We should NEVER be making class generalisations particularly in the current febrile environment you describe.

The article was piss poor - I can't really believe anyone politically literate and not envisioning a future UKIP / Katie Hopkins career could write it/authorise it.

The reality is that gangs of men do this, sure there are different cultural and social reasons that dictate the different demographics of these gangs but the communality is masculinity.

Girls from lower social economic groups, girls in care, girls made vulnerable through earlier abuse, from grooming and low self esteem have been used by men like these for years.

Go back 15 years and you couldn't get SS or the police to be interested in girls in Children's homes being pimped out by older girls/boys and the men in cars outside. At the time the men doing this were white where I worked and later still white but a different ethnic group. Society has never given much of a shit about poor young girls.

I remember an article in The Times in the early 2000s that raised this very issue and cautioned against making about race. The problem is it IS an issue and has to be addressed, but we all seem so incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. When the Catholic abuse scandals blew up its all anyone could talk about as if it was only Catholic Priests did this sort of thing. Now Rotherham has blown up it seems to eclipse all other dimensions and seems to present only Muslims and 70s entertainers.

Outside of abuse suffered through family members, and people close to families the biggest cohort of perpetrators come from teachers and education. We manage to tackle that subject without demonising all teachers and to have that conversation in a civilised manner.

There are people outside and within Muslim communities that are speaking out and wanting to stamp out this kind of abuse, and often these people say the same sorts of things. There are also a legion of people ready to cry racism before the first syllable is formed from anyone willing to examine this.

Yes we are all capable of being racist and it's always worth having that conversation, but a bit of perspective and proportion needs to be applied. Forgive me if I'm not in full on Islamophile mode, a close relative of mine was in Barcelona yesterday whilst I was looking after their children. Luckily all is fine now, but if we can't have a discussion about people who wish us actual harm, and want to rape because we don't fit their narrow definition of honour then we really lack any sense of self preservation.

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away

Where has anyone said that? No one has said it is not male entitlement- it is male entitlement, in this case specifically targeted at girls of a different ethnicity.

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away.

Please don't try to imply that people on this thread are racist or don't care about vulnerable girls. Untrue and uncalled for.

am very disappointed by JCs stance on this. The most vulnerable people in the country are young girls. Not grown men.

Well said.

You'll have to imagine the italics in the quote!

%One was consciously ignored for fear of racism. One is unconsciously ignored because it's embedded in our culture and we don't see it as wrong in the same way. Both happen.^

I'm not for one second denying that. I've been a victim of male violence only from white men. But this is a specific form of it and these girls and the few people who tried to help them should not have been silenced for PC reasons or fear of it.

Recently I've been working and talking with some women who have survived this. You can bet your last penny on the fact that the wives and children of these men are also being treated with horrific abuse - one of the women told me that, while she was being raped, one of her rapists liked to phone his wife and have them 'talk' to each other. They routinely talked of what they did to their wives and children, and were completely nonplussed about ever being called to account for what they were doing to any of these women or children.

Frouby is absolutely spot on - yes, this is an issue of men's power and privilege, but you don't ignore one group of perpetrators because there are others too. SC is not right about everything, but she needs to own this - she needs to stand by what she said and not back down when faced with yet more sexism, this time from her own party.

I live in Rotherham and knew some of the victims.

It is absolutely a cultural issue. There was and is a problem with muslim Pakistani men raping white women. To acknowledge this doesn't mean that there aren't problems with other groups of men abusing girls and boys. Just that this is one problem.

It's a racial problem for 2 reasons. One is because the men saw the girls as inferior and there for the taking. Good muslim Pakistani girls are married young and for bearing children and running the home. White girls are for fun.

The second reason is because it was absolutely brushed under the carpet because of the race of the abusers. Partly because no one wanted to be accused of being racist. And partly because no one wanted to create difficulties and racial tension in an area that was already pretty tense and always has been.

Since it has been public knowledge Rotherham has had regular marches from far right groups. At one point it was every other week. It has nearly destroyed our already struggling town centre. There is suspicion and hate every where you turn. And racial tension is never far away. Comments acknowledging the problem will no doubt trigger more marches and more racial tension. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed in a factual matter.

The facts are that Rotherham had a problem with muslim Pakistani men raping white girls. It doesn't mean that Rotherham doesn't have a problem with white men or Caribbean men or Catholic priests or any other group of men raping white girls. But the cases being discussed were the Pakistani muslim gangs organising, selling and grooming young girls into a huge paedophile ring.

I am very disappointed by JCs stance on this. The most vulnerable people in the country are young girls. Not grown men.

Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away. It is neither. It is a criminal thing.

It probably still is btw, I just don't watch Jezza anymore!

Yes I agree, but it's possible to make that point without dismissing the cultural issues inherent in these specific situations.
I'm not dismissing them, just not putting them front and centre of the debate.
Anyway clearly I'm in a minority in thinking exploitation of vulnerable girls is a male entitlement thing rather than a brown person thing so I will step away.