Sarah Champion

And because of that, I think making Muslims/Pakistanis answerable is no different to expecting all non-Muslims to be answerable for non-Muslim abuse

Who is advocating for this exactly?

Exotic" escorts/massage

Is that soley white men?

Are there organised gangs of white men targeting Asian or Afro-Caribean girls?

"Exotic" escorts/massage.

I think for me this boils down to - are young girls not living near British Pakistani communities at less risk than those living near to such communities?

I honestly believe that young girls that fit the description of white trash are at such a high risk of sexual abuse everywhere that the only sensible denominator is that the perpetrators are male.

^This

And because of that, I think making Muslims/Pakistanis answerable is no different to expecting all non-Muslims to be answerable for non-Muslim abuse

And Pakistani men of Muslim origin doesn't make much sense... Muslim Men of pakistaní origin, perhaps. Islam is a religion, not an origin. And I would hesitate to call these men Muslims anyway, in the same way I'd hesitate to call the Westborough baptists Christians.

No - seems to be being glossed over.

Has Shah been forced to resign yet, like Sarah was?

Mistake, yeah right! There is a lot of people that would rather discussion about this was shut down.

The Daily Mail article has been archived for those that dont want to click the link

archive.is/dWH5k

The tweet was presumably by some one attempting in a pretty offensive way to show support for Champion by means of parody.

Shah is either too thick to realise that or she took it at face value. Neither interpretation does her any credit.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/16/sarah-champion-complaint-sun-article-british-pakistani-men
This is the Guardian's take on the whole thing.

Did Naz Shah mean this in an ironic way? No I think she's lost the plot.

Totally agree OP. I was absolutely horrified that Corbyn silenced her. Women/girls/children silenced yet again. Yet the horrificness of the abuse! And so widespread! I will now never vote labour as long as that dick is the leader.

Did Naz Shah mean this in an ironic way? It was deleted and a spokesperson apparently said "it was a mistake". Surely, she can't really have meant that abused girls shout keep quiet for the sake of diversity???

Sorry for the source of the link
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4813870/MP-shares-Twitter-post-telling-abuse-victims-shut-up.html

Completely agree with every word Karlos. Great post. And Corbyn should be ashamed of himself (yet again)

Given the horrific nature of the offending I can't get too worked up about feelings of offence or hurt within the communities the offenders come from. It hardly compares to the suffering inflicted on these children and understanding and dealing with what lead to that is what we should be focussing on. The fact that time is spent dwelling on "feeling offended" just shows how we still fail to prioritise the safety of girls and women. Everybody else comes first.

Sensitively I meant to say! But sensibly too

Yes it's a fair comment. And should be raised. And the race/culture issues need to be treated sensibly. But I'm just concerned about the consequences of people feeling like they can't mention the culture aspect at all. Because it will be exploited by perps to cover up abuse, and generally it won't stop people believing things. They will just have more of a grievance.

Yes I agree eresh and I think I would feel very differently if there were signs that people were to take offending against women and girls more seriously as a whole. For me it just all smacks of fiddling while Rome is burning. We can't tell these guys their attitude to women is wrong while we have a society that promotes a view that fuckability is the most important aspect of femaleness; that cat calling and harassment is OK; that sex work is a valid profession.

I think you missed her point there.

Yes that's a fair point. But as you note there is a cultural commonality. That should not be brushed under the carpet. This is a specific crime which requires a specific approach which in some ways will be different to other CSA.

And that's the overwhelming feeling I get from the Pakistani community in Rotherham. That it's a terrible thing that shame has been brought on their community. Not that it's a terrible thing that has happened to children.

Of course the Pakistani people in Rotherham talk about "their community" because it's being discussed and reported as a Pakistani Muslim crime. You can't have it both ways. If you are labelling it as a crime in a particular community you can't then get the hump about people from that community describing it as such

IT IS NOT PAKISTANIS
In Bristol it was Somalis
In Newcastle it was Bangladeshi, Indian, Iraqi, Iranian, Turkish alongside Pakistani
In Oxford, Pakistani and East African
Rochdale - Pakistani and Afghani
Rotherham - Pakistani

Yes most are Muslim.
I think the link is more to very patriarchal societies with strong views on modesty and gender roles than particular races or religions.
If I was of Pakistani heritage I would find the reporting on this deeply upsetting.

Full fact have analysed the stats
fullfact.org/news/are-asians-disproportionately-represented-prosecutions-sex-offences/

Channel 4 have done more recent reporting that suggests while men of Asian origin are more commonly responsible for group offences, white men carry out solo offences and these are the majority of crimes

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/what-do-we-know-about-the-ethnicity-of-sexual-abuse-gangs

So is it OK that the media is overwhelmingly focussed on group offences rather than the large number of sex offences against children as a whole. I don't think so but ymmv

you think those same men aren't abusive within their own community - utter bollocks they are.

No one has said that they aren't. That doesn't mean that there weren't cultural issues involved in any way with this specific type of abuse that they perpetrated.

In my experience the opposite is true. That the police are racist. Certainly not in Rotherham. I can give many examples but I won't because I will end up of being accused of being racist.

Sometimes I feel racist. Because I do judge. But when do you say 'you're being a judgemental, racist fucker making assumptions about an entire race of people' and when do you say 'you are going on an instinct based on years of experience on one particular race'.

I grew up in an area that would today be classed as 'multicultural'. In reality it was a ghetto of people from a completely different background with completely different expectations and cultural norms. The 'pakis' of my childhood were ostracized, abused and suffered horrific inequality. They were blamed for everything from nits to poverty. They were criticised for not working and criticised for 'taking our jobs'. They were accused of being responsible for the drug epidemics to taking over local dealers business with cut price weed and smack. They were accused of taking up.council houses yet criticised for buying property. The irony of a local 'can't work, won't work' family complaining in the local post office behind Pakistani women collecting their family allowance wasn't seen.

And the shame on a family whose daughter was 'shagging the pakis' was worse than a daughter coming home pregnant at 15 to the above redundant local drug dealer.

And the same biys who called those girls 'paki slags' are now round Rotherham town centre on a Saturday afternoon protesting about the fact that the police and social services and the council did nothing.

Rotherham should hang its head in shame. The only victims in all this is the children as young as 11 who were passed around 30 and 40 and 50 year old men. Who were taken from childrens homes by taxi to cities and used and abused in hotel rooms by Pakistani Uncles. Who were collected from schools and family homes and bus stops and chip shops and taxi ranks.

The Pakistani muslim community has a lot to answer for. But so does the whole of Rotherham.

And that is my last post on this thread because I always end up looking like I am racist. I am not. I am an annoying lefty liberal. But even I fail to see how these cases are not a racial issue.

Yeah batteries it's a depressing reality. Was this caused by those Asian men whose cultural assumptions let them see the white girls as slags. Nah they just saw them as easy accessible victims - you think those same men aren't abusive within their own community - utter bollocks they are.

"...The fact that Muslim men have been disproportionately 'caught' / sentenced could be taken as proof of racism. I mean, surely no one actually believes the police aren't racist towards non-white communities?..."

No this isn't proof of racism at all. This is a false flag.

Part of the scandal in Rotherham was that the organised gang who were doing it were NOT being investigated despite social workers gathering and presenting corroborative evidence/intelligence about the goings on. We can't just call it racism now that the pattern is being looked at by the Police, because the pattern is clearly there.