Women in public/children in public

I went to meet an old colleague for coffee the other day, and we just went into an Italian cafe we happened to pass. The waiter was so lovely to us because DD was there. She showed her all the cakes they had and picked her up and talked to her, gave her her pad so she could 'do a drawing' for her. Then the owner came to say hello and refused to put DD's biscuits on the bill, and gave her more to take away with her. My friend asked if people were always so nice when you have a baby and I almost wanted to cry, because actually it's the first time in ages where I haven't been made to feel like a horrible nuisance in everyone's way. I'm not depressed, and I'm not even a sensitive person, really, I tend to just file people under 'twat' and get on with my day normally, but I've always had people with a sense of humour around to lighten the load a bit.

How old is your DS?

Exactly! Whatever you do, someone will have the hump about it. I'm sure I got some side-eye today because we were at the zoo and I was telling ds to come and see the Agouti (because he liked them last time we went). What can you do?

Most of the time I'm fairly good at giving no (or at least fairly few) fucks, but some days that's harder than others. And it is so lonely, like you say.

Also, you really can't win. If you interact with your children, you are performance parenting, if they're happy and you're reading, you're ignoring them. Finding the balance is impossible.

I shall have to have a look for that. Trouble is, he's a fairly big lad despite being very young, so I suspect people think he's older than he is and therefore judge him (well, me) when he is (for example) hurling himself to the ground because I have cruelly and heartlessly insisted on holding hands or prevented him from taking the melons off the shelf and using them as footballs (unreasonable wench that I am).

A lifetime of being conditioned not to make a scene is suddenly overturned entirely by someone who has precisely no fucks to give, and I suppose that's bound to be tough. I suspect this is not something that men have such a problem with as a group (although I know individuals who would be mortified). We are after all supposed to keep quiet and not make a fuss, as women, lest we be judged as 'shrill'...

You feel so on your own, don't you? I had to get on a bus with DS mid tantrum the other day and I said to the two ladies opposite me 'I am so sorry about this. If there were any other way to get home, I'd use that.' And they told me not to worry about it and it almost made me cry because l had been expecting irritation.

Spudlet, there is a brilliant book by Jill Murphy called Meltdown about a tantrum in a supermarket. My children think it is hilarious and it is very sympathetic to mothers.

Excellent thread. I got a disapproving look by a woman sitting next to me and DD when having lunch at a cafe earlier today, and that's exactly what I needed to read.

I am glad to read this, I found those threads so fucking depressing. I have probably been quietly judged for doing both... ds still isn't talking at 19 months so I spend lots of time chattering away to him to try and get him going and yes, that can be a bit, 'Look, there's the donkey, do you remember we saw one at that other place? Blah blah blah donkey blah' - because I am trying to help him. And at the other end of the scale, I have put an episode of Hey Duggee onto my phone for him because I just need five minutes to gulp my coffee down before we go and I get judged for interacting with him again.

Sometimes it feels like I try so fucking hard with this every day, and I just can't win. I had PND and can be a little anxious so it does sometimes get to me. I took a little while to get the nerve up to go to the supermarket with ds today, for instance. Because last time he had a tantrum and I got tutted at - no help of course - and I almost cried.

How many do you have? I have 3 and I feel your pain as I too use public transport a lot. It's soul destroying.

I agree- this has been a big issue for me as I use public transport a lot. I find that however much I try, I just can't make me and my children small/quiet/invisible enough to be acceptable. It's really affected my mental health

I think that may well be a factor, ISay. I've experienced that kind of attitude of 'it's your choice' about breastfeeding. As in women are choosing to breastfeed in public, rather than in private, when actually they just happen to be in public when they need to feed a baby.

I also wonder if it's something to do with the fact that we have few if any memories of early childhood, so perhaps we don't include that period in our sense of self, so see children as something other.

Oh I can break out the voices and then some! I have to be careful my story voice invariably attracts more children than just the one I come in with when ds and I make a trip to the library!

Someone said on here that contraception has made us more protective of our children. I wonder if something similar is going on here. The frequent refrain is 'You chose to have children'. Children don't seem to be viewed as smaller people but as some sort of irritating lifestyle choice rather than the next generation that they are.

Make sure you do ALL the voices, Dervel!

The expectations around children in public disproportionately affect women, so deaerves some thinking from a feminist perspective. Childcare (and care of the elderly) seems to be thought of as something intelligent people don't do. It's treated as something that isn't important and should be kept out of the way of busy people who are Doing Important Things.

I often see on here the idea that people without children (even if they're just without them for that specific time) shouldn't be burdened with anything to do with them. So they should be able to go to a cafe without hearing any children, or the woman who had to take her nappy home with her from her friend's house - because baby rubbish is just too disgusting to go in a wheelie bin.

Look forward to the report back Dervel!

Spot on OP :-(

I was upstairs on a bus yesterday with my 8 yo son and 2 year old daughter, my son was sat next to my mum and was barely talking and my daughter was chattering to me in normal toddler way, I was chattering back to her and my mum. Not performance parenting just talking. Neither were shouting/screaming/moving around. As an elderly gentleman got off the bus he said to me "it's like a bloody zoo up here". This was because I guess I didn't stop my daughter from talking. I really don't know what I was meant to have done.

Olenna Challenge Accepted!

I was the thinking the same as I read them and then got the bus back from nursery yesterday.

A woman asked someone to help her lift her pram onto the bus as it wasn't close to the kerb. The bus driver told her snappily that she was taking too much time and the bus was leaving. Then on the next bus (as the first was full), a baby was whinging, not even crying (mine was quiet for once) and a woman very obviously put her fingers in her ears. Of course she may have had reasons to, but it's still stressful. And I was only on the bus because the station has so many steps I can't do it with a buggy and there's no lift. And that's just using public transport.

That' a shame Olenna, but like you, I always seem to think of retorts after the event!

I've not been around long but has MN always been so hostile about these things?

No. It has got worse. MN used to be more sophisticated and definitely more child and mum-friendly.

I guess the test would be for a man to sit in a coffee shop reading the Gruffalo at levels loud enough for everyone to hear, complete with voices and see what the reaction is...

The thread had a lot of posts from people saying that they knew of men who were into this "performance parenting" thing, so it definitely was acknowledged that men are just as irritating!

CeeBeeBee - unfortunately not - I swept half dressed DD up and left the venue with only a "hope you feel good about yourself now" muttered to him.... Proto-feminist DD then calmed down and got agitated at what jsut happened ("But mummy, he had no right to tell you to leave!") but honestly I felt too ashamed to go back in again. (I've since spent a lot of time coming up with what I should have said at the time, of course)

Dervel - yup! DH doesn't get offered seats to sit down with one of the DC on his lap like I do on public transport (or help lifting a buggy up steps, like I used to when we were at that stage), but he generally gets a pat on the back for things like taking the kids to activities, and far more help and understanding if things don't go perfectly.

MrsE - I guess the test would be for a man to sit in a coffee shop reading the Gruffalo at levels loud enough for everyone to hear, complete with voices and see what the reaction is... Dervel - up for the challenge??

Dervel, DP and I have talked about this as people generally act very impressed that he's taken his daughter to the park, or wherever. I find the passive aggressive sighs and tuts, the comments and the unwanted 'advice' pretty constant.

It doesn't stop me doing things, but I do spend most of my time just with my 1 year old, so sometimes the only interaction I have all day (except with DP) is quite negative. But I am quite self assured and didn't suffer with PND so I can see how it can be much worse.

The angle I take on this is that the subjects of those threads were being really bloody annoying, and rude, but they just so happened to be women. I'd be pissed off if it were blokes in their place, but it was women. Should we not call people out on their behaviour because it would be anti-feminist to criticise the behaviour of a mother? That to me is where discrimination occurs.