Women in public/children in public

But plenty of posters have said they've been made to feel unwelcome in a public space because they have a child with them. Not even a crying baby, or a tantrumming toddler - just a baby, who might cry at some point, or a toddler who might have a tantrum. Being treated like you've already done something wrong makes people feel unwelcome. And making your children unwelcome in public makes the person looking after them - who are overwhelmingly women - unwelcome, too.

Asking PARENTS to parent their children in a way that is considerate of those around them isn't against women. It's about PEOPLE having manners.

The same would be true of others for example:
Expecting teenagers to not be rowdy in a cafe
Expecting parents to not allow their children to run around cafes
Expecting business men/women not to have loud work calls in that 'I'm important' tone of voice
Expecting adults to speak to each other in a way that is appropriate for the environment.

Basic consideration and behaviour that's appropriate for an environment is not about keeping women in their place. It is about everyone having basic manners and showing consideration.

Oh have a look in chat... now there's a woman fuming about a mum playing with her daughter on the beach.

I couldn't bite my tongue. It's really griding my ducking gears this bullshit.

It speaks volumes about the egocentricity of contemporary society, that a grown person can believe that an unknown mother is mothering for THEIR attention, rather than that of their child.

Yes! Very well put.

Definitely - I do a lot of public reading/engaging as we commute into central London with ours (3 and 1) every day. We read lots of stories and I do glance up to check we don't seem to be unduly bothering anyone (although they are pretty well trained by now). It's not for their 'benefit'- it's that whole feeling of not wanting to annoy anyone by being in their space and feeling apologetic.

We do quite often travel with a male friend and his toddler and he is very unapologetic about taking up the space they need, asking people to move up so they get 2 seats together etc

Sadly the day after I read that other thread I found myself moderating my public reading tone to be more monotone and quiet. Will have to work on that.

I fully sympathise with the poster above who said her son is big for his age so people judge as if he is older. I had exactly the same issues with my eldest son.

I had PND when my children were younger, I still have depression and when I am feeling bad I find myself getting anxious about other people's perceptions of my parenting. In lucid, rational less emotional times I KNOW that judgement of parents is unnecessary and says more about attitudes to parenting generally and mothers specifically. I do think this is a feminist issue as it seems particularly directed at mothers. In my time I have been discussed loudly and dismissed about my buggy (the woman who was pretty venomous about this actually walked into my stationery buggy so it was her fault), had my feeding choices commented on, been told I should discipline my children with a stick (yes, I really am telling the truth) and in a doctors surgery while extremely heavily pregnant with a 1 and a half year old who was losing the plot I had every old person in the place glaring at me and tsk tsking like a room of crickets and muttering under their breath. I actually (and embarrassingly) got annoyed and told off one old man for his unpleasant remarks. Please note I wasn't embarrassed by what I said but because I lost my cool. But here is what happened, the receptionist came and took me to a private room and gave me some water - I think she was being nice but it felt like I was being given a time out and justifying the disapproval- fest in the waiting room. I could go on and on about the comments, the nastiness of strangers when I have been with my children - the way people speak to you as if you are to be looked down upon... Attitudes in this society need to change. Children are not a lifestyle choice, they are a natural part of a society continuing and evolving, when people are hostile to children and their parents it will affect the next generation.

I too am irritated by the judgemental threads on MN about parents (by parents of all things - it is an internalised attitude like internalised misogyny and it confounds me) if we cannot support one another then who do we have? I have to confess to some unhelpful and flippant replies on those threads from sheer irritation.

I agree with pp that a lot of performance parenting is more a 'please don't hate me. I'm trying to make sure my dc don't annoy you'.

^ should read Are the other customers in (for eg) a coffee shop ever described as...

Completely agree op. I've never really understood what the whole "performance parenting" thing is all about. I'm not saying it never happens, but I think it is very, very rare that mothers are behaving the way they are purely for approval from an imaginary audience. They may be self conscious, and aware of the scrutiny of those around them, and a lot of the time they will be taking the comfort of surrounding people into account (hence, reading a story/singing a song to prevent a noisy screaming tantrum), but what on earth is wrong with that?

Are the other customers in (for eg) a ever described as coffee shop "performance drinking"? Or "performance reading", "performance texting" or "performance typing"? No, they're fucking not. Just women who have the audacity to take their young children into a public place.

Salut - that's exactly my thought - if I'm looking around, it's more to assure people that I'm dealing with the child, that there's not going to be any more noise or fuss than there needs to be. That hopeful smile isn't for approval of my parenting, but self-deprecating, bear with me, 'kids eh' smile.

Only you were there Lass, so only you know, but I'm pretty sure I've said similar to my kids - that the man/woman isn't interested in them, because they weren't, and it was to stop the kids talking to them, not to guilt the person into talking to them.

I've just come back on a plane, with DP and our two kids. In the row behind was another couple, with similarly aged kids (younger one a little younger than mine I'd guess), and I was smiling to myself listening to the youngest and his mum - he had a very carrying voice, and was pretty much continuously talking until takeoff, and his mum was engaging him (and periodically offering an ipad with a hopeful tone) - I guess some of it could be labelled by the uncharitable as performance parenting, but frankly, if you're going to have to have a conversation with two year old, you have to do something to keep yourself engaged too (my favourite bit was the kid proclaiming that the plane ahead of us in the queue ahead was 'naughty' and the mum replying 'is it naughty, or did it just make bad decisions').

I was just sitting there grateful that mine had plugged straight into his pad and was painting bugs!

*their opinion of their parenting.

Oh it absolutely is a thing- it is the looking around to try to catch the eye of anyone nearby -the sort of expectant looking for approval.

That is such a weird interpretation of somebody's look. How do you know what goes through this person's head, you can obviously not read her mind.

Incidentally I know that when I stop /slow down somewhere to explain or point something interesting out to dc I (a) sometimes tend to use a more engaging tone of voice trying to make it sound fun or adventurous or whatever to capture their interest because if you don't then explaining expressionist art just might seem alien and boring and (b) I often look around me.

Why do I look around me????????

Not because I am performing my excellent parenting skills to passers by ( I am not interested in their view on my parenting skills,) but because I am possibly a bit anxious that I might be in the way or drawing UNWANTED attention from passers by. I glance around to make sure that people don't take notice because when the do, I will either move on or definitely tone down my voice.

I just don't get why any grown up would assume that a stranger would be interested in their parenting.

I was on that other thread and tbh I think that pp is so obvious when you witness it that it is hard to confuse it with someone just loudly engaging with their own children.
Either way though, coffee shops are noisy and if people over the other side of the room can hear every word distinctly, over the machines and general chatter and have to hear the same story being read repeatedly, is it really unreasonable to think the parent should tone it down a bit?
That's not the same as saying she shouldn't be engaging her child. But there really are some people (as many men as women) who want to demonstrate their superior parenting publicly.
I'm just not sure that that particular OP is indicative of women being judged or silenced, although I do agree that in other scenarios it is the case.

Miffer your extremely rude comment rather proves my point

No it really doesn't.

@callenetics

You're talking about something q different though. You're talking purely about volume. The problem with the original poster on the thread about "pp" was the entire act of public engagement with a child- it wasn't just the volume, it was the enthusiasm, the reading itself etc.

And I think if a person is going to a coffee shop for peace and quiet, they're in for a sad shock when the coffee machine is in use. The high pitched shriek of steam and clattering of equipment cuts through ANY environment.

If the whole argument were really about using "inside voices", it highly doubt it would have inspired this counter thread.

The woman reading very loudly to her child in the coffee shop would have annoyed me, not because I don't think she should have been reading but because the space is shared and if I can hear every word, rather than just general background noise,then she is saying that what she wants to do should take priority over everyone else in the room. Talking is fine, shouting isn't.
I would be equally annoyed at a group of men treating costa like their office.
The most irritating performance parenter I know is a man - it's not just women who are judged.

It comes down to expecting all people in public to consider the comfort of those around them.

I will happily talk to children if they try to engage me and think that society ought to understand that they need nurturing and kindness. They need to know they are just as important as adults. I would never ignore a child, just as I wouldn't ignore an adult, but yes, I do expect their parent to look after them, not expect total strangers to keep them entertained.

I also agree that middle aged men seem to be very aggressive, possibly linked to the decline in their physical power, which is the thing men are judged by. Ptobably why they try and bully women - another man would knock them on their arse.
I was once walking down the street with my little brother and sister and some older man knocked one of them into the road on purpose because they didn't get out of his way fast enough. I chased him up the road and gave him a right earful. We have to challenge this sort of entitled rude behaviour.

YY QueenNefertitty

When I'm out with dd I barely even notice other people. If someone this is I'm interacting with her for their benefit then they need to get their head out oif their are.

I was thinking about this today actually, because my family to visit so we went for an afternoon out in a local town. As we were walking along it struck me how slowly my stepdad was walking, and how oblivious he was to who was around him. Don't get me wrong, my stepdad is a lovely, kind man who would never plough through someone, he is very polite and always waits in line, lets people through doors etc, but he has never had to develop that hyper awareness that I feel like I have of people coming up behind him and so on, because frankly he's a bloke and he's 6'7" tall and built like a brick shithouse. I doubt many people have ever shoved past him or tutted at him because he's in the way!

So he just makes his way through life at his own pace. Which must be lovely. Whereas I spend my whole time glancing around so as not to be in the way, especially when I'm with ds and therefore meandering along a bit at his pace. Which could of course be interpreted as pp... when all I want to do is stay out of the way

I see entirely what you mean, QueenN.

I was thinking about this thread today, and the ones that inspired it... and realised maybe we're looking at it the wrong way round.

All of the mother-bashers citing "pp" as problematic, are assuming that the performing parent is doing it for their benefit I.e the child is an irrelevance- the point is the parenting is for observers to be impressed.

It speaks volumes about the egocentricity of contemporary society, that a grown person can believe that an unknown mother is mothering for THEIR attention, rather than that of their child.

IYSWIM?

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing

Oh it absolutely is a thing- it is the looking around to try to catch the eye of anyone nearby -the sort of expectant looking for approval.

These statements are fascinating me. Isn't much of this thread really about people's differing perceptions of what is going on when a parent is chatting/reading to/otherwise engaging with a child in public?

What I mean is, you cannot possibly know for absolute certain that a parent who is, e.g. reading a book with voices, and then occasionally looking around a room is doing that because they are putting on a performance and then looking around for an adoring audience of other adults.

So, what makes all the people who post on these threads make that set of assumptions about (mostly) mothers?

Isn't it just as likely that the reasons for these behaviours are one of the many (imo, more plausible) alternative explanations offered by others on this thread? e.g. they are keeping their children busy/entertained, it's just their normal way of interacting with their child, they're looking around (the irony!) to check that they are not annoying the crap out of anyone?

Lass to be honest with you you sound pretty angry. Some people are nobs, parents or not. Some people behave like nobs every now and then even when they're not - in fact that's most everyone I believe.

This is not a thread of poster after poster passing very vocal judgement on your desire not to engage with the children of others - in fact Miffer was pretty balanced IMO - like I say, everyone's a nob in someone's eyes from time to time.

But drop into one of those mother-bashing threads that inspired this one, then you'll see who it is who can REALLY do no right on MN; who is lambasted from all angles the second they dare leave the house with their children; and you'll wonder where the thread is attacking you that has made you so angry.

Performance parenting is definitely - IME - a thing, but it isn't just reading a book using funny voices or pointing out interesting things from the train window. It's something very different but the phrase has been coopted to cover normal, engaged parenting done in public

Oh it absolutely is a thing- it is the looking around to try to catch the eye of anyone nearby -the sort of expectant looking for approval.

But sometimes I just don't feel like it or I'm in my own thoughts (often necessary on a packed morning train, it's the only way to survive) and the joy of them not being your own children is that you aren't obliged to engage with them. Maybe I'm a nob on occasion...

I was out this afternoon walking along a street with a narrow pavement. Wide enough for 2 people to walk abreast or for 2 people to pass each other but not enough for 3. I saw a couple pushing a pushchair coming towards me and moved as far as I could to the traffic side so the pushchair could pass me away from the traffic. I assumed the parent who wasn't pushing the pushchair would for the nanosecond it would take to pass me drop behind her partner- but no she just kept walking and I was expected to step off the pavement.

Miffer your extremely rude comment rather proves my point. It is not enough that I sit quietly, minding my own business, not impinging at all on what the parent and child is doing but I should engage if the child wants to. No I won't. As Oleanna says I might smile or pass a few words if I feel like it. If I don't.

The irony is of course I read on MN endless complaints of how women are socialised to be nice- clearly in your case you escaped that - but you think you are entitled to demand a complete stranger should engage with a child just because that child wants to.