Feminism as "let's be nice to everyone"

Then I think your understanding is wrong Bert. Some might agree with it given the provisos Blistory has outlined, others support a harm reduction approach as opposed to an abolitionist one. And some do support abolition. As I previously said, liberal feminists are not a hive mind.

Who are you unwilling to share your umbrella with?

Moussemoose wrote - "I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?""

I hope you are not trying to suggest that middle class women are not raped, are not sexually harassed, do not suffer domestic violence, don't lose their jobs when they become pregnant, aren't paid less than men they work with, etc.

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Clearly if you are not comfortable don't say anything. You are right organisations don't care but lots of people in organisations do care deeply. My motivation is of no interest to you, why should it be. But scandals like Rotherham etc were uncovered by people within the system.

I am working to prevent other incidences like Rotherham by challenging attitudes within some communities. Please be assured there have been days when I have come home, read something on a thread and gone back in to work fighting the good fight.

I am very sorry you don't feel able to access help, I wish I could do or say something to support you. All I can say is I am trying my best to do what I can.

Mousse

But for how long will it change your opinion? Will it be long enough to not call me or other women 'bigots' for fearing males when they are in vulnerable situation, like, for example, being undressed? In my experience on these boards, not long.

In my experience, most people, organisations, don't care. Which is why I have never been able to properly access any help. And actually, being asked 'why' by people like you. I don't talk about this generally and I'm obviously going to have to name change now. But in my opinion this attitude is the same as those who were neglected in Rotherham, Newcastle and all over the country. And I actually don't know your motivation at all

AssassinatedBeauty
It's not genuine interest when you make a value judgement about the response. You only value feminism that comes from a background like yours

Absolutely not! God forbid I only value working class feminists, with politics degrees who shop at waitrose now! That would be next to useless.

MN is really important to me in pushing me outside my bubble. The boys I work with are potential abusers. If i am able to convey the depth of pain and life long suffering it may prevent more abuses. Please, please do not think I do not value your contributions.

There are some views that I am not prepared to share an umbrella with.

An opinion is not feminist because a woman expresses it.

BertrandRussell

My understanding is that liberal feminists believe that selling sex is a legitimate way of making a living. I do not believe this

And you explain your reasoning, and you call them feminists. Feminists who you disagree with but feminists. You are under the same umbrella but you disagree.

It's not genuine interest when you make a value judgement about the response. You only value feminism that comes from a background like yours.

AssignedMentalAtBirth absolutely your lived experiences help me do my job and inform my politics. I don't feel fear in a toilet when a man is in the next stall but you telling me about your life and your experiences makes me stop and consider my opinion.

AssassinatedBeauty

It's not a trick it's genuine interest. As I said I spend a lot of time in the 'enemy camp'. When I read about middle class women complaining about an issue I realise intellectually it is valid but after an emotional day I think "what the fuck do you know about being oppressed?". I know it is relativism but feelings are feelings. I suspect according to many I am doing feminism wrong because I gravitate towards these deeply troubled young men.

Dione works in the trenches of feminism and I am sure her life experiences would make compelling testimony.

I'm interested. I think sharing where our views come from would inform the theory.

It is men who commodify sex. Whether they are buying women or young men.

I do not believe that the idea of women being commodities to be bought or sold is compatible with feminism.

My understanding is that liberal feminists believe that selling sex is a legitimate way of making a living. I do not believe this.

And no, once again, I am not prepared to give my CV.

That was to Mousse

I have, several times, on this thread. Women not being assaulted, abused, raped, manipulated informs my feminism. Because I was and I wouldn't wish it on any other woman. Does that pass your test?

And does it explain why transactivists threatening me with rape doesn't quite make me inclined to accept penises in my gym locker room? I bet you will tell me why I am wrong though. Do my 'lived' rapes not compete with 'literal violence' of the 'misgendering' of transwomen?

And why I can't write a paragraph about this shit without having to use inverted commas

Mousse is that question a test to determine if people are doing feminism right, in your opinion? What's the right answer?

PricklyBall But when they are, ask yourself "who are the punters

Excellent point.

AssignedMentalAtBirth I know it is whatanoutery, my point was that is the reality of my working life and it informs my feminism. I am sympathetic to young men, it's my job. What aspects of your life inform and influence your feminism?

Men are involved in sex work - yes. But when they are, ask yourself "who are the punters?" There are a tiny number of women interested in purchasing sex, but the vast majority of punters are men. Richer, more powerful men purchasing the bodies of the weaker and poorer - predominantly women, but also men and children. Ask yourself about the reality behind that much loved tabloid euphemism, the "rent boy". Yup, that's right, an underaged male child being exploited by paedophile men.

In all of this, overwhelmingly, it is men as the purchasers who are the problem.

If you don't acknowledge this statistical reality, you are telling yourself and us lies about what is involved in prostitution.

A lot of whataboutery going on there Mousse

Concentrate on the task at hand. We are talking feminism

AssignedMentalAtBirth

Men are involved in sex work too. Gay porn and heterosexual porn involve men. Yes, my working life has touched on this issue.

AssignedMentalAtBirth
My main concern is find ways to prevent women being assaulted/abused/raped/harassed/manipulated for being women

As I previously mentioned I work with troubled young men. So I am helping women by helping them but it does mean I spend a lot of time in 'the enemy camp' so to speak. I consider myself a feminist but my working life revolves around male issues so I do prioritise them. Am I a feminist?

Blistory, if it's not theory, then the view that the sex work is benign is dangerous to women. In some ideal world where women have all the choices, it might be different, but we don't live there

AssignedMentalAtBirth

In theory I agree with you Blistory

My thanks Blistory_for articulating my beliefs. That's the great thing about working together, you do the work and I get to agree with you.

If sex work was any other job, we get to buy sex = result!

That was a joke. Joke. It was a joke.

Bert still interested in your personal journey. If it helps, one of my issues is that because of the type of person I am - aggressive, assertive, out spoken - I work best with boys. I spend a lot of time with very troubled young men. This means I do feel enormous sympathy for them. Dione works with women who have been abused and this informs her feminism. You?

Ok, Bert, you have a different view.

Do you consider my views on sex work make me less of a feminist ? Or make my support of women less valid ?

Because the overall impression I get from threads like these are that liberal feminists aren't welcome at the table and directly harm women with their views.

Do you believe that liberal feminism is about "supporting the sex industry" Bert?

Even in theory I have a problem with sex work. Women are not a commodity for men to buy and sell.

In theory I agree with you Blistory.