Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

UK gym to admit self ID'ing men into womens changing rooms

113 replies

Whatnextxx · 07/08/2017 22:22

Here is the thing, went to renew my membership at the gym today but before I signed up asked about the policy of allowing self ID'ing men (i.e. men who decide to become "women" without surgery etc) access to womens changing rooms. The membership assistant didn't know and went to find out, she was gone quite a long time and came back ashen faced to tell me that if a man "presents" as a woman he would be allowed to use the womens changing room. I pointed to a little girl of about 5 or 6 and asked how she would explain a naked male in the changing room to her and did the same with an older women who looked to be around 70. She said she is shocked at the policy and wondered where the protection is for women and girls, she didn't have a clue about Justine Greenings proposals.

The thing is that the womens changing room has only 4 cubicles and they are at the far ends of the main open space so even if I or any woman was to use the cubicles we might emerge into an open space where naked men might be.

The assistant said she had spoken with the manager and asked what would happen if a sex offender pretended to be a woman. She told me that she didn't agree with the policy but that there was nothing she could do as the policy came from central office. What an awful position to put employees in.

She understood exactly why I didn't renew my membership.

I contacted the owner of the gym and to try to highlight the issue did it on Twitter. I was subjected to a barrage of horrible comments, one even accused me of being a jihadist!

So fed up with this, there seems to be nowhere for women to go without worrying that some male bodied person is going to come into spaces where women are changing.

Am I being unduly sensitive or am I realistically concerned about having my privacy and dignity taken away by men who think or want to behave "like a woman"?

OP posts:
Blanchefleur · 08/08/2017 11:50

I cannot understand why it is not patently obvious that many (I will hazard a guess at most) women neither want to nor expect to get undressed in front of male bodied people who are not their husband/partner.

This is not demonising men. For example, I am confident that my husband's best friend, my father-in-law and my next door neighbour (to name just a few) are not rapists or perverts. However, I still wouldn't want to get undressed in front of any of them - and nor would they ever expect me to.

MissionItsPossible · 08/08/2017 11:43

Hi, hope you don't mind me being in this section as a man but I saw this thread trending. I think this is ridiculous. Why should a man be allowed to enter a woman's changing room simply by saying "I think I'm a woman". Sorry, but no. There's being PC and then there's being OTT and this case is the latter. I say this as someone who would also argue the case if the shoe was on the other foot and have actually done so when it came to groups of women being allowed admittance in gay (men's) bars.

Seeingadistance · 08/08/2017 11:37

forget the 'about'.

Seeingadistance · 08/08/2017 11:36

That was addressed primarily to Ralph's comments about.

Seeingadistance · 08/08/2017 11:30

I don't go to gyms, and this angers me.

The situation described in the OP can be about fear, or discomfort or a desire for privacy, but for me it is overwhelmingly about misrepresentation - men are not women, males are not female.

I should be able to expect not to find men in the women's changing rooms, but that is increasingly not the case. Women who phone helplines for support having been raped might find themselves talking to a man, women who flee male violence to a women's refuge might find themselves sharing that space with a man, women who have have trained in a particular sport might find themselves competing against men, women who wish to access statistics or objective information about any issue relating to women might find that men are included in these statistics ...

And this is happening, not because these facilities, services, sports, stats, are now inclusive of both men and women. No, it is happening because any man who declared himself a woman is being allowed into women's spaces as a woman!

Original poster
Whatnextxx · 08/08/2017 11:11

Ralph

Here's my issue. .....I have two sons...why is it ok for you to insinuate that being male is something to be feared or be intimidated?

Here is my issue, I have one son and have not insinuated that being male is something to be feared or to be intimidated. I have expressed concerns about naked men who may or may not have nefarious intent in a womans changing room and that women are expected to be comfortable with this.

Why do you believe being female gives you the right to judge and put other groups and genders down ?

I have not judged others or put other groups down, how many of the, is it, currently 71 genders have I put down? And in what way?

You feel uncomfortable?

Yes I feel uncomfortable, why? Because as with many other women on this thread I have been subjected to male sexual violence and use this particular gym for the very reason that there is/was sex segregated facilities. The local authority pool does not have sex segregated facilities which is why I tried to find one that did.

Great lovely......please consider it ok to implicate demonising of my son's gender because you have issues you can't deal with like a grown up?

I have not demonised your son, in doing so I would also be demonising my own child which is patently ridiculous. Please do not patronise me by suggesting I am not “grown up”, at almost 60 I am very much “grown up” and as such I ask that you retract that statement. I am perfectly capable of dealing with “issues” but take exception to having men in an open changing room that is designated for use by women.

I'm extremely feminist bordered with meritocracy....I wholeheartedly believe in safe places for all genders

If you are extremely feminist then you will defend the rights of women and girls to have privacy in what is described as a womans changing room, if not then perhaps reading more widely may help to refine your ideas on feminism. I am not a feminist, basically I do not like labels, I am a human being who happens to be female and I agree that there should be safe spaces for all PEOPLE. If that means gender neutral facilities with floor to ceiling lockable individual changing rooms that would work but how many gym owners are going to spend the type of money on providing such facilities. It is far easier and cheaper to stick “gender neutral” stickers on the womens changing room and hope women don’t complain too much

But hey......as long as you made a tokenistic statement during your terribly middle class gym renewal

The gym I use is definitely not “middle class” in fact having done the research prior to joining it costs significantly less per annum to go there than to the local public baths i.e. it cost me less than £1 per day to join - £230 (off peak) for the year as compared to £5 - £6 for a single session at the local authority pool. So again please retract your class war statement as it is inappropriate and deliberately divisive and provocative. As for your viewing my action as being a “tokenistic statement”, if by not renewing I am saying that I do not support a policy that puts women and girls at potential risk of harm then that is a powerful message to send and speaks louder than writing on a forum. Why should I pay good money to line the pockets of a multi-millionaire who evidently has no clue or concerns as to the implications of the policy his company has introduced?

OP posts:
Datun · 08/08/2017 11:05

It's both frightening, and a relief when I read links like that.

Because to me, it was obvious from the beginning that this was not progressive.

The complacency and sense of untouchability that transactivists have is becoming more recognised. As they push their agenda, people are pushing back. But it's taking such a bloody long time.

UK gym to admit self ID'ing men into womens changing rooms
MiddleEnglandLives · 08/08/2017 10:29

I read somewhere that girls are transing more than before. Perhaps that's the only way out of this lunacy - when no one wants to be female anymore except a few made-up-to-the-nines fools perhaps we'll be able to look at just why that could possibly be happening.

MiddleEnglandLives · 08/08/2017 10:25

Congratulations ralph for demonstrating everything that is wrong with self-identification lunacy. I do hope it was a reversal.

Yes male-bodied people are people that women and girls fear. Yes that may well include your darling little Tarquin sons, especially if this is a sign of the entitlement you have endowed them with. Yes girls and women have the fucking right to fear males. Because males are dangerous at worst, or just downright unpleasant - they enjoy intimidating and harassing anyone they can - far too fucking often.

It doesn't even need to get as far as sex offences. Too many intimidating and unpleasant activites men subject girls too regularly are not in the least illegal. We are told to put up with men groping girls and women often enough already, after all boys will be boys and men will be men. And that is when contact is involved. Imagine sending your 13 yr old girl to swimming lessons, and there is a naked man there leering at every girl who walks in. Nothing you can do because he identifies as a woman today, and after all, he isn't hurting her is he? How long will you stand for that? How long will you put up with it yourself if you want to swim?

I really worry that this is the start of women losing everything - in the example above you won't even be able to say 'a man is in the changing rooms intimidating people', because that is 'bigoted' and 'transphobic'. It would legally be a woman causing the trouble and you can't bar women from women's spaces can you?

As ralph shows we won't even be able to identify that men are dangerous any more without being called names and told how irrational we are. I worry about long will even real sex offences actually be considered offences for?

What do people think women's spaces were created for in the first place? I really wish this scenario was in chat or aibu, might have made 1 or 2 people think.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 08/08/2017 10:25

treacle
" If someone has been mauled by a dog and fears dogs as a result, we tend to say 'that's understandable'. "

The threads on here are brutal about dogs. If a dog even approaches another human or another dog for a sniff, there is a full on fizzing that the dog should be on the lead, badly trained, owner's a disgrace etc etc.

But women are supposed to get blithely naked in front of men, and 'deal with it' even if they have been sexually abused, assaulted, humiliated by males.

Well fuck off, I'm not going to. I'm going to find out what's happening at my gym and I'm going to start talking tot he older ladies about it. Because you can be damn sure that will come up in the coffee chat after class

And as for those 'who have sons', you can fuck off too and teach your sons that some men are predatory fucks and if they want to be decent men they should recognise that.

And I also have sons and they are growing up to be fine, respectful, intelligent young men

Datun · 08/08/2017 10:10

I don't want men or pervs in my changing room, whether trans or not.

The very small percentage of trans-women who are post-op, can still have an unhealthy obsession with womanhood.

The ones who don't have AGP, and are generally androphillic are probably the least worrying. But I see little difference in women being objectified on the street in a lecherous way and being objectified in an interested and observational way. I really don't want men in my changing room looking at me and wishing they were me.

I totally understand how difficult it must be, but I don't want to be included in it.

OrangeButton · 08/08/2017 10:01

Fear for me. I've been spied on more times than I can count as a teenager in changing room to the point I stopped going swimming (a sport I loved). Been raped. More than once. Been sexually assaulted. More than once.

And for everyone saying that we can't tar all men with the same brush. Of course, you're totally right. And i don't. But, I was sexually assaulted by a doctor when I was pretty ill - in hospital. I can tell you that I still go to the doctor's and if pushed go to hospitals, but I don't feel safe around someone because they're a doctor. I don't feel entirely sexually safe around someone because they're male either (unless I know they're gay) with good reason. And that's on dark streets, empty trains etc where I've got my clothes on!!

I don't want pervs of any gender in women's changing rooms. And to be fair, transwomen shouldn't want that either.

Datun · 08/08/2017 09:59

ralph, I wonder if you're misinterpreting male bodied people?

Because you refer to it as being snide?

It's the language one has to use otherwise one is considered transphobic. I sincerely wish we could just talk about men and women. But we can't. Because some women have penises. So you have to talk about bodies, as in 'male bodied'.

Talking about men and women no longer makes a distinction between the biological characteristics of those two groups.

Men have vaginas and women have penises. You will absolutely be accused of bigotry and transphobia if you assume otherwise.

TheWitchAndTrevor · 08/08/2017 09:48

What policy would most people want for transsexuals

This isn't about what you know as term transexuals.

The old fashioned type transexual has been discreetly using women's toilets and changing rooms for decades.

What has changed is that transgender(not transexual as this word is nearly obsolete) now refers to any male that says they are woman.

So what you understand to be someone gone/going through extensive body disphorbia and going through surgery to relieve this feeling after having years of medical and therapy help. Isn't just what trans gender means now.

As I said above any male can now just say they are a woman, and it would be hate speech to challenge their presence in a women's space.

treaclesoda · 08/08/2017 09:41

For me, it is purely about privacy. Not fear. I want privacy from men, I don't want to be naked in front of a strange man. I don't think that's unusual or unreasonable.

treaclesoda · 08/08/2017 09:40

I don't have a terror of men either. Most of the men in my life have been lovely. In all honesty I didn't realise that so many women feared men until I started reading mumsnet. But if I'd had the life experiences of a lot of those women I'd fear men too.

Telling women who have had previous experiences that make them fearful of men that they are silly and need to get over it and what about the poor men and their hurt feelings isn't very helpful. If someone has been mauled by a dog and fears dogs as a result, we tend to say 'that's understandable'. But if a woman has suffered violence at the hands of a man, or as is often the case a succession of men, she's often accused of being hateful and unreasonable for being wary of men as a group. It's weird.

silkpyjamasallday · 08/08/2017 09:38

All of this infuriates me, why should women (and children who are most of the time with their mothers in changing rooms) who make up 50% of the population give up their privacy and protection of sex segregated spaces to the 0.1% of Transgender people? I am happy for them to have their own space created for them and I would be willing to share women's spaces with those who have fully transitioned (I.e. No longer have a penis) but I do not want I spaces opened up for men who simply 'feel' like a woman and still retain a penis. I have been raped, as have many other women I know and I don't think we should be forced to be undressing in front of male bodied people.

I hope that this gender feelz tyranny is nipped in the bud before it is made law, but sadly I believe it is going to happen and we will have lost the right to sex segregated spaces.

demirose87 · 08/08/2017 09:29

It's not always about violence and whether anything would happen to the women put in a vulnerable situation, although of course that's a possibility. That situation should never even happen in the first place.
As harmless as they may be, I do not want a random male to see my naked body, nor do I want to see a naked man's body parts other than my partner's.

QuentinSummers · 08/08/2017 09:29

ralph I don't have "terror" of men but I've come across enough pervs in my life not to want men near me in a changing room because they say they feel like a woman. Google voyeurism in changing rooms. There are loads of men out there who get their kicks filming/watching women change, I'm sure they will be delighted to have a way to get into these places without having to sneak in.
larry I have no issue with transsexuals or genuine transgender people using the changing room, it's the fact men can walk in there by saying they "feel like a woman" and we are expected to be fine with that.

It baffles me that we vet people working with children, don't allow them to be alone with children etc etc because we know children are vulnerable and paedophiles take advantage of opportunities to get close to children to abuse them so we reduce opportunities.
Yet despite knowing there is a section of males who want to access women's spaces for sexual gratification, we are removing the opportunity women have to protect themselves I. E. By being able to challenge a man in the changing room and have him removed. We are refusing to acknowledge that sex offenders will exploit opportunities to abuse women despite knowing that's how they operate.

The narrative is if he is there to commit a crime he can be arrested. Well 1) Tell that to the victim and 2) We don't have a great track record of prosecuting sex offenders.

ShotsFired · 08/08/2017 09:14

@Josuk In my years of visiting that gym - I have not seen men presenting as women in my changing room, or on a gym floor. If and when that happens, and if that becomes an issue - I am sure we can, them discuss it with management.

Bit bloody late by then, isn't it? Or do you routinely wait until decisions have been made and announced before getting involved and stating any objections?

e.g. If the hairdresser gets out the clippers, do you wait till after she's done the first grade 1 pass over your scalp; or do you stop her and question her intention beforehand?

Or if your neighbour wants to erect a 30' observation post in his garden, do you wait till it's got planning permission and the structure is above your fenceline before you inquire whether it will be overlooking your home?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/08/2017 09:01

'Who will decide they are lesser or dangerous because of their gender

Just like once upon a time people did to women'

Once upon a time? Are you for real?
Sexism against women is alive and well right now and people trying to take away women's rights to dignity and increase the risk of assault and voyeurism in order to prioritise a small number of woman-identifying men is a horribly good example of it.
You have sons. I have sons and a daughter and I am not going to support anything that diminishes her rights in favour of theirs.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 08/08/2017 09:01

Male violence is a pretty well documented phenomenon Ralph - and unfortunately most women can be overpowered by the average man, or did you think that women just couldn't be bothered to fight back?

larrygrylls · 08/08/2017 08:59

It does not seem to bother the Germans or Austrians to have mixed changing facilities. Maybe that is the way ahead.

Euripidesralph · 08/08/2017 08:52

Wait so because you don't agree my post makes no sense? I don't care if you have three sons or not I do and I take offence

I'm allowed my opinion just as everyone else is and I really did get that....I'm really sick of the terror of safe space being invaded crap

You don't take offence .... Fabulous....I bloody do

And actually why the hell am I bothering .....you'll all just find some ridiculous cause to waste your time on

Swipe left for the next trending thread