I am Jazz. ***Trans content. Please do not open if you just want to post insults or whinge about another trans thread***

Did the doctors know what would happen though? Part of the problem with all this is that it's relatively new treatment - Jazz is one of the first to go through this process from so young - that's why she got the T.V show.
Part of the reason so many people are uncomfortable with the medical transing of children is precisely because the outcomes are unknown and there is no ethical way to test it. Jazz and other trans children of her generation are guinea pigs, but they have become so before they are old enough to legally consent to the medication and procedures themselves.

I feel I shouldn't be watching the programme now..all things considered,why should a young child's life be my entertainment,even if I was only watching it to try to understand..I don't feel the parents have her best interests at heart

Eezer I have the feeling the dad would, if he could.

And ...i do feel sad for her ,I didn't ,but now I do..what sort of life will she have now...I wonder if the parents would turn the clock back if they could

Soo,on this thread the general consensus is ..she can never be a woman even with bottom surgery..and it wasn't jazzs choice,she enjoyed playing at being a girl and the parents let it go to far,then started making money out of her,with the tv program..and now she's stuck inbetween the two sexes...not able to become a man or a woman...so,I have a question..the doctors must of know ,when they stopped her puberty that ,that would mean her penis would t grow enough to make a vagina....well why didn't they say so at the time..why did they allow the puberty to be stopped if it meant not being able to make a vagina out of a small penis..that's just sick and wrong.and these doctors should be struck off..but they did a good job of selling the program

I just looked at that article by Jazz. 'I figured out how to undo the snaps on my onesie to turn it into a dress shortly after I could walk'.
Where even to start with this? Most little kids do things like this. They undo poppers on things just because they can. And no baby or toddler, boy or girl, could care less if they are wearing a dress or trousers.
My Mum told me that when her brother was born in the 40's all baby boys (in her area) wore dresses until they were about 9 months old. Funny how all those boy babies didn't sense 'something was wrong' and try and join the material between the legs to make trousers. That's because babies and very young children don't care what they wear and have no understanding of any social message given by clothes.

I'm aware that this is a 'pro' article, but it does quote a rather different statistic for moving from blockers to sex hormones, at least from the Tavistock.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/13/britain-needs-to-stop-freaking-out-about-transgender-kids/

I wonder where the author got his figures from? I'd quite like the actual stats without any spin.

Thanks, Spaghetti.

Spaghetti - what's the spiro / pickles thing? Intrigued!

This Time article by Jazz is interesting, especially as I can't believe that she can actually remember all the stuff from when she was 2 or 3 (I know I can't, and neither can my DC). And the story about the wedding ring test is definitely something that has been told to her over and over until it became part of her narrative, isn't it.

(I wonder whether if the dolls she had seen when she was little had been anatomically correct as adults, with a full 70s bush, they would have been so attractive to her)

Apologies, went off and came back so x-posted

For adult men who just transition hormonally, surely they would need something to block testosterone as well as taking oestrogen - is that Lupron or similar or is it another type of drug, does anybody know?

Spironolactone is pretty usual I believe. And something to do with that is what results in the american references to pickles/pickle juice, as apparently it saps sodium or something, and american gherkins are salty rather than the sweet ones we get in the UK.

Just to be clear - I am not pro trans, or blockers, or any of it! I'm just curious as to how much the emotional/intellectual development side of things actually relies on hormones. For example, a good friend of mine in school went through puberty very late but wasn't emotionally or intellectually behind. I think we might be underestimating socialisation.

I appreciate that hormones would likely have had an effect in terms of Jazz coming to terms with a male body, and certain behaviours (as mentioned in the article Jiggly linked to), so very relevant to the issue of whether they would go on to full transition.

But the apparent immaturity in other ways is surely massively due to upbringing/social environment? Especially around the trans stuff - they've been brought up in the religion/belief system of trans, so why would they think anything else?

... and that person's feelings are far more important than those of any biological women/girls who find the presence of an intact, very male person in a safe space intimidating. They are the ones who risk falling foul of the law. What a coincidence that it's a biological male who is more important than any number of biological females.

Yes bigcup, because transitioning is a state of mind not body now.

If a six foot tall man with a deep voice, broad shoulders, beard and fully functioning penis says he's a woman inside, then she is and should be respected as one.

This is all so grim.

I've never seen this programme, nor am ever likely to, but one of the things I've seen stated a few times is that the doctor who has treated this poor child is the mother's cousin. Is that ethical?

I feel desperately sorry for this young person. Even if Jazz stopped taking hormones now and refused surgery, what kind of life could s/he have?

I'm also extremely angry about womanhood being reduced to pink sparkly frilly clothes, high heels and a front hole. Some TRAs have the effrontery to say they 'do' being a woman better than most real women, because they are so fixated on their appearance and are very cruel about women who aren't. How on earth did we get into a mess like this?

For adult men who just transition hormonally, surely they would need something to block testosterone as well as taking oestrogen - is that Lupron or similar or is it another type of drug, does anybody know?

To put it another way only 20% of male ADULTS choose bottom surgery. They transition entirely without puberty blockers. And even then they often only have hormones to soften their features, or give them boobs, but they don't have genital surgery

Can that be called transitioning? You haven't changed state, you certainly haven't changed sex.

Furthermore, Jazz has no choice now. She is not, nor ever will be a woman. In fact, her parents have made absolutely certain that jazz is, and will forever be, known as a transgender person. She will never have a chance of going stealth, ever.

Her choice is to retain the genitalia of an 11-year-old boy, or go for a neovagina with the result of being capable of being fucked by someone where she will have no enjoyment.

Dear God.

Anyone who doesn't see the misogyny underlying in this is blind.

Icantreachthepretzels

Exactly. I completely agree.

Even if Jazz is mis-remembering things, she is now coming at it from an entirely different perspective. That of an adult, or adolescent, whose priorities are completely different to those of an 11-year-old child.

Children rely on adults seeing into the future. It's part of being an adult with the responsibility of raising kids!

Affirmation and acceptance of what an 11-year-old wants, has a limit. Ffs.

That email from Jazz's mother made for interesting reading. Both in the way that she wants to be included in the questions (attention seeker) and in the way she wants to lead Jazz into giving the 'right' answers (controlling, with a dash of rewriting history). And its clear, even from that little excerpt, how much pressure Jazz is feeling to perform this role of transgender advocate, and how its taking its toll.

If her mother really valued jazz's well being and happiness above the publicity and money then surely she would stop pushing her into public speaking when she is feeling lots of pressure and 'hasn't been herself'. Jazz needs privacy, and probably therapy, not to be centre ring of her mother's trans/media circus.

To put it another way only 20% of male ADULTS choose bottom surgery. They transition entirely without puberty blockers. And even then they often only have hormones to soften their features, or give them boobs, but they don't have genital surgery.

I'm not blaming you Eezer, but you are illustrating my point about how this program has marketed something experimental, horrifying, and unpredictable, as good. The spin is brainwashing by another name.

What ever you think of Jazz's or her parent's motivation, what she has ended up with cannot possibly considered something that will provide her with a positive life.

If you said to anyone, especially an 11-year-old child, yes you can be regarded as a woman, but you will never have babies, never have sex properly, struggle to find a partner, you will have no libido, spend rest of your life dilating your sexual organs and be on medication, untested for the duration - how many people are going to say great!

According to Eezer, this has come as a complete shock to Jazz.

Especially as there is little evidence of gender dysphoria. She was diagnosed, yes, but the narrative describes it as liking things of the opposite sex. Jazz, to all appearances, was a very happy kid.

I've watched a little bit of this program out of curiosity and totally agree with the PPs here saying it is a form of abuse to allow this to happen to a child. The mother was getting weirdly excited when they went to the hospital to check Jazz's hormone levels, it's clear that she loves the attention and did put me in mind of munchausen by proxy.

I'm also puzzled how Jazz "fancies" boys as she's not started puberty, it strikes me that she is desperate to date because it's what the other girls are doing and she just wants to join in so much and prove how much of a girl she is. It's hard not to feel sorry for the poor kid.

"Everything they see and learn they experience it in the same way a child would, rather than the way an adolescent or an adult would; probably in much simpler, black and white terms and more accepting of what people tell them - not thinking to question if received wisdom comes from a place of authority."

A perfect under/ servant class.