"I don't have a gender. I don't see why I should have a gender"

I've read quite a few stories of women who transition to escape misogyny and then go on to try and be one of the boys. They end up encountering such unvarnished misogyny, (because they are considered to be presenting as immune), they are disgusted even more disillusioned.

In my experience a lot of the negative aspects of being a woman, and therefore having the female gender imposed, actually delight some MtT people.

I read some MtT write that online, too. Either that, or they are utterly surprised and shocked that men really treat them like crap the moment they "pass" ... even though feminists have told them for years and years how men treat women.

But perhaps there is also a separate gendered treatment by society of MtT or FtT people who have obviously transitioned

There is. Men who claim to believe the whole stuff still give MtT more respect than actual women.
Men who don't believe it ... well, I suppose conservative men treat MtT the same way they treat other feminine men, i.e. with contempt. Male feminist allies would do their best to treat women and men the same, so not much of a difference there.

Men also still rape FtT.
My guess is that men will treat an FtT like any other gender-non-conforming woman. I.e. the men who are willing to accept and welcome women who behave like "one of the guys" (often by being misogynist against other women) will do so with FtT, too, while the men who hate any gender-non-conforming women will discriminate against them.

In my experience a lot of the negative aspects of being a woman, and therefore having the female gender imposed, actually delight some MtT people.

Catcalling and street harrassment for one. As it's validating.

And if course, there is always, the option of identifying back into the gender that has the power.

Thanks VestalVirgin - very interesting.

I think that gender in the feminist, society-enforced sense, becomes very complicated when talking about trans issues. I completely agree that, for example, MtT people will always have a masculine gender in the sense that they were socialised as and treated as male growing up. Some may then experience at least aspects of a feminine society-imposed gender (for example, street harassment or being treated in a certain way because they present as women).

But perhaps there is also a separate gendered treatment by society of MtT or FtT people who have obviously transitioned. It would be interesting to hear more about that from the trans community. It is not as simple as just calling it "discrimination" in that a person is not treated as his or her chosen gender identity. There are some aspects of a feminine gender that MtT people will almost never experience - the expectation that she will get pregnant, for example, or perhaps even the general expectation that she will have "feminine" characteristics and interests.

How does the rejection of gender tie in with the necessary recognition that it still shapes all of our lives, personalities and experiences?

Well, that's where things get complicated.

When I say "I don't have a gender" I use gender in the sense the genderists use it, i.e. to mean the nebulous "gender identity" that genderists allege all people have.

When I say "Gender must be abolished" then I talk of gender meaning, as it has always been used by feminism, socially enforced gender roles. They exist, they influence us all, of course, and they need to be abolished. I acknowledge that I have a gender in that one is forced on me by society.
(And for this meaning of gender, the gender of MtT transgenders is masculine as that is how they have been socialized, with the exception of very few cases of boys who were raised "as girls" because they lost their penis in an accident as baby and doctors were unbelievably idiotic. Whereas the gender of FtT transgenders is feminine, as that's how they were raised, without any exceptions that I know of.
Transgender people won't be happy if you tell them what their actual gender, in the feminist sense of the word is. Because they are fully tied up in the illusion that they can decide themselves how they want society to treat them. Which is not how oppression works, obviously.)

The only issue I have with a statement such as "I don't have a gender" is that it potentially ignores the ways in which gender is imposed. I can reject gender as much as I like, but I can't fully overcome the ways in which society treats me (or has treated me) in a different way because of the gender expectations I have been subject to since birth. I can't completely shake off all of the childhood teaching that I mustn't be bossy, must let other people shine, must be modest and nice etc. Nor can I forget the years of listening to sexist jokes or being made uncomfortable by men in public places.

How does the rejection of gender tie in with the necessary recognition that it still shapes all of our lives, personalities and experiences? It's a genuine question and I would be interested in any thoughts.

we will be letting people declare themselves alien next

I often feel like an alien.

if you change sex then yes i get that that is different

You are aware that humans can't change sex, are you? It just doesn't happen.

... have you read the thread? You totally should.

this rubbish has gone to far christ we will be letting people declare themselves alien next .you are either male or female end of story .if you change sex then yes i get that that is different but this no gender this is just a load of twaddle trying not to swear but i do get irratated at this

I think it is a radfem statement.

It is how I usually phrase my rejection of gender. (Despite that being inaccurate - I do not want a gender, but society forces one on me anyway, so in a way, I have one. Even though I don't see why I should)

"agender", "nonbinary" and "bigender" and all the others still are genders, the people who identify as such believe that people should have genders. The "I don't see why I should have a gender" sounds pretty rad to me.

drspouse

If you do, let us know what they say.

AdelicaArundel

Exactly. You've put it better than me.

Although, if mumsnet is anything to go by, people are waking up to the damage that gender does. Not just the FWR board.

Yes Datun- I agree that women know what it means but we are very rarely given the language to explain what that feeling is. I've found this board so helpful to figure out the language to describe the inequality that's everywhere.

I had written a longer post, which included the bit about the female gender including attributes such as being "nice", hearing the other point of view, spending time on developing, maintaining and repairing personal bonds (time that could be spent on "masculine" things like making money and becoming powerful).

There's another thread on here about the moments when it all falls into place...it's a bloody awful moment actually. Realising that for so many men, women are disposable, interchangeable pieces of meat. Like a pet dog.

Where is parenting going wrong to allow men to grow up with those attitudes?

AdelicaArundel

Unpacking what gender means, requires an awareness of it in your own life. Funnily enough women are only too well aware of what it means to them.

But you still get women who talk about the division of house work, lack of promotion, mansplaining, etc, who, at the same time, will then agree with the trans-ideology.

I can see how it happens. Women are socialised to be nice and inclusive. Compliant.

A soon as you see it though, it's like a light bulb moment on steroids.

Datun that is a brilliant summary.
I now get why the trans lobby gets hung up on "pink brains" BS- it allows them to pretend that gender is innate.

Women are oppressed because of their biology. Stereotypical gender roles are the means by which it's done.

That sums it up perfectly Datun.

I don't find it confusing at all and nor should anyone with a basic grasp of biology and how society works.

Sex is real. It is objective. Gender is an amorphous will-o-the-wisp word devoid of any exact meaning. TAs use it to obfuscate a very simple concept to their own advantage and have assiduously worked to bring it in to common parlance as interchangeable with sex.

Sex has remained real and objective in humans from the beginning of time (not referring here to genuine intersex individuals). Gender is a label that varies over time, place and culture. It is what ever the user of the word says it is - a bit like Humpty Dumpty in Alice through the Looking Glass. "“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

user. I agree that it's confusing.
Some things that are classed as 'masculine ' or 'feminine ' are influenced by biology. For example, women are more likely to have more 'delicate ' facial features and men are more likely to have square jaws, prominent brows. Curvy hips are 'feminine Big muscles are 'masculine'.
But not all women and men have these 'feminine' and 'masculine' characteristics.
And as for the personality stuff- that's influenced mainly by society's expectations. I don't think I have the stereotypical personality of a woman, even though I look very feminine.
Hormones play a part too, but I don't know enough about all of this stuff. Need to do some more reading but alas I'm addicted to fiction!

user

The feminist viewpoint point is that gender is a spectrum of masculinity to femininity. A way of looking, acting or behaving in a socially constructed stereotypical way. It's socially constructed because gender roles vary across time, country and culture.

Since women have historically been assigned a feminine role, it plays to those who wish to take advantage.

Because it is a supporting role. It says you must be fuckable, sexually available, nurturing, compliant, a good housewife. Traditionally women were not thought capable of an education, or to hold positions of power because of their innate femininity making them unsuitable. Too feeble to be capable of voting. Considered hysterical and then incarcerated if they wanted to leave their husbands, etc.

So imposing the female gender stereotypical role on women is oppressive. The idea that it is innate is used as leverage. It is used as a tool and for every stereotypical feminine characteristic I can give you hundred women who don't have it.

And gender politics, particularly trans politics, enforces it. It says that gender is not imposed, it is innate. A man can innately feel as though he is a woman. He will present in a feminine way, act in feminine way, feel 'womanly' and therefore that must mean he is a woman. Not a feminine man. God forbid.

Which merely underpins the notion that (gender) roles are set, concrete and solid and women have them. All of them designed to make women take a supportive role. Whilst men get on with the real business of leadership, power and politics which is innate to them.

Sex on the other hand is innate It's identifiable, verifiable.

Women are oppressed because of their biology. Stereotypical gender roles are the means by which it's done.

Trans ideology completely contradicts things like gender fluidity though. Hence the lack of logic.

User, gender is the cultural and societal expectations of what it means to be a man (adult male) or woman (adult female).

Sex = male/female - biology, innate, objective

Gender = masculine/feminine - societal, imposed, subjective

She is saying I'm a person not a role. Probably also 'i' m a good me but a bad Rachel from Friends, or porn star or 50s housewife or hair straightened contour made up clone' which is fine by me!

OR in 80s language, I'm not a Sharon or a Tracey, or a Kev

I'm guessing this person means they don't 'identify' as male or female, which is post modern nonsense. If she means that she's an adult human female with no innate sense of gender identity then that's a radical feminist position. But I doubt it.

I don't see why anyone should have a gender role dumped on them either.

It's quite a different statement than "I am agender" is, so I'd say it is probably a feminist statement, yes.