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Original poster

Does this experience support the trans idea of being born in the wrong body?

81 replies

Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 12:42

Excuse the long post. There was child born in 1988 with cloacal exstophy. The babies genitalia was unidentifiable. During surgery internal testicles were removed. The baby spent their first year being raised as a boy and at one year old it was decided that it would be psychologically better for the baby to be raised as a girl. The Drs were under the impression that it didn't really matter, a child without genitalia could be raised either sex and it be fine.

For the next approximately 20 years the child was raised as a girl, chromosomal testing was done for medical reasons and it was discovered they had the XY chromosome. He decided he was a man. He has spoken of always feeling like something wasn't quite right, he had struggled spending many years trying to convince himself and everyone else that he was something he wasn't.

I know most of mumsnet agree that gender is dysphoria is a very real condition and simply question how gender identity law can be exploited by those not genuinely suffering with it and how it will infringe on others rights. But I do believe there are some who question that you can be born in the wrong body at all. If sex is truly only about genitalia then why did this man feel so distressed by the years of living as female? Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology?

I'm not being goady, I feel it's a valid thing to question.

OP posts:
SaintFrancis · 02/08/2017 13:23

And while I haven't read the book, according to that article he didn't say he grew up feeling male, he grew up feeling that something was wrong (which it was) and the gendered way he was feeling was not him (which very many people feel).

He decided he was male when he was older and much more aware of his own condition and the social context of that.

Gileswithachainsaw · 02/08/2017 13:21

Are there cases of this now where perhaps parents leave surgery and hormone treatment til much later in order to see how things develop?

What would happen if the kid was to decide And then surgery/treatment etc started?

SaintFrancis · 02/08/2017 13:21

When we talk about raising someone 'as a girl' that is assumed to be about gender roles.

And a large part of it in society is.

But a large part of it is also about raising someone as their sex. Being raised 'as a girl' means being raised to know that you have the kind of body that can get pregnant and give birth to children.

If you're raised as a girl in the gender related ways, but know the sex related ways don't actually apply to your body, of course you are going to think something is very wrong.

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:20

He's biologically male. He always has been. Please don't think I'm at all trying to question that or suggest for a second that he's transgender.

The fact that he always felt male on top of being male is what is interesting to me. What makes a person feel a certain sex? Is it their biology? And if so what scientifically is causing that feeling? It clearly wasn't hormones because he was on female hormones.

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tabulahrasa · 02/08/2017 13:15

Despite not having make genitals etc, obviously... one word makes a huge difference there.

Gileswithachainsaw · 02/08/2017 13:15

I think the biggest problem was the lack of honesty tbh and lack of choice.

Parents could technically have just given him a neutral name such as ashley or Alex and steered clear of raising him.as anything but "himself"

I wouldn't want to have to make the decision and I feel for all involved but perhaps this could show that years of feeling the way he did is just as likely if not more so than the possibility of suicide due to lack of a penis.

PaintingByNumbers · 02/08/2017 13:14

Do you see what I mean though, you would be arguing that biology trumps erverything ie the opposite of the trans argument

tabulahrasa · 02/08/2017 13:14

"Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology?"

It's the exact opposite of that...

If it's evidence of anything it's that biology absolutely determines gender, despite male genitals and male socialisation he felt male because at a biological level he is, his chromosomes are male.

I mean mostly it's evidence that he got a raw deal and a whole load of life altering decisions made for him with no real consideration about how that might impact him Sad

But if you're going to try and use it as a discussion about gender and biology, he's biologically male.

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:13

Yes. I was trying to avoid naming him.

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PaintingByNumbers · 02/08/2017 13:12

Which is a more deterministic view of gender, I suppose
I hate that though, this idea that your chromosomes or genitalia determine your personality. Leaves no room for the individual and just a big bundle of stereotypes
Another interesting angle would be about identifying as the privileged group, I always felt I would be better as a man, I'd get paid more, taken seriously, have to do less housework, benefit from male privilege. Doesnt that just make me sensible?

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:11

'Yes, if he was biologically male then he wouldn't go through female puberty would he? That might have given him a clue.'

It was the 'that might have given him a clue' that I felt was insensitive.

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Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:10

Painting yes that's what I'm thinking. Does his feelings suggest that these 'internal feelings' are very real and perhaps a part of science we don't yet understand.

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/08/2017 13:10

Oh lordy. NO ONE has been insensitive!!!! You raised the case in a relatively clinical manner and people have responded accordingly. Most posts have said how awful his predicament is. What do you want to hear?

SaintFrancis · 02/08/2017 13:09

I think you have your answer then. If they had this range of physical experiences and were given medication, they would of course grow up thinking there was something different about them.

There was something different about him.

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:09

YetAnotherSpartacus you've hit the nail on the head. If anyone wants to understand more about the case I'm not than happy to PM you his name. There's a fair bit of info online about him and he has written a book.

I see the point about biology and his feelings. That's a fair point.

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PaintingByNumbers · 02/08/2017 13:08

A trans person would argue their chromosomes don't match their "internal gender". This persons chromosomes did match their "internal gender".

MiladyThesaurus · 02/08/2017 13:07

He wasn't suffering from body dysmorphia because intersex is an entirely separate issue.

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:07

Can we try and not be so insensitive about a person who went through a very traumatic experience. He was born with his organs on the outside, a gash where you would normally find genitals and his stomach. His mother had to use a saline solution to rinse out his insides when changing his nappy. Maybe you can understand that somebody born with such a major disablitly might not be inherently shocked when they didn't start their periods at thirteen?!

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/08/2017 13:06

Sounds like the case was so badly mixed up that nothing about identity could be easily ascertained from it :(

PaintingByNumbers · 02/08/2017 13:06

That might be evidence that biology leads to behaviour/feelings, so, the opposite of the trans argument.

Seachangeshell · 02/08/2017 13:05

But of course he couldn't have been raised as a male without a penis. Poor guy. Intersex people really suffer.

Seachangeshell · 02/08/2017 13:03

Yes, if he was biologically male then he wouldn't go through female puberty would he? That might have given him a clue.

Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:02

He couldn't have had periods af far as I'm aware but his medication did give him breasts.

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Original poster
Gettheleather · 02/08/2017 13:01

Saint Francis. He was given hormones. His mother was told he would kill himself if raised as a male because he had no penis.

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