Does this experience support the trans idea of being born in the wrong body?

DermotOLogical

Of course they do. But not according to the trans ideology.

Nobody is born "in the wrong body". It's just nonsense.

Datun surely your chromosomes determine your sex.

Sorry, I meant women not men, of course. The "I have a penis and beard but I am a woman" or "I have a vagina but am a man". Those terrible "this is what a woman looks like" campaigns. I find it ludicrous they want to be X and then change what X is. Sorry, but it's a joke.

MrGHardy

I'm not sure I understand your post. Most men who want to be a woman absolutely do not consider themselves men.

They don't consider themselves other/a third gender, either.

They consider themselves women. Through and through. Your brain determines your sex, not your biology/anatomy/chromosomes.

God the more I read about trans the more pissed off I get.

A man has a penis. A woman does not. If you are a man and think you want to be a woman but want to keep your penis (most common example I suppose) then you are not a man. Don't pretend that abnormal is suddenly normal, and in this case "male". You can ask for your abnormality to be respected but you can't pretend that you are a normal male. It sucks yes, but life can suck, and it would be much better to learn to accept it rather than try to deny it by changing how biology works.

Second, I posted this just now elsewhere, why the fuck do you so desperately want to be labeled X only to then tell others how they view X is wrong? It makes no sense.

Would be a lot better if we had more than two genders, maybe then they wouldn't feel the need to tell everyone else how they fit into one of the two.

JAPAB

Two things:

From most women's point of view, it really doesn't matter if a man truly has some kind of essence that tells him he has a lady brain. He has a male body. That is a sufficient distinction. It's also the distinction that will get him treated like a man by everyone else. Irrespective of what he wears. The lived experience of being a male or female is entirely dependent upon your sexed body. (In terms of the difference between men and women).

But secondly, I might be more inclined to give credence to an inner essence, if every single transactivist I've talked to didn't come across as an example of the worst kind of predatory, aggressive, bullying entitled man.

They have no appreciation for, nor understanding of women, either biologically or practically. Their motivation is to dominate, both sexually and linguistically.

Even genuine transsexuals, whilst being far less aggressive, and whilst yearning, often quite genuinely, to have an affinity with women, do not come across as female.

How can they?

They might come across as more feminine, or effeminate, but that's not the same.

So you have one half coming across as masculine and domineering, the other half coming across as effeminate and fragile, none of which makes a person female.

Because being a female is not dependent upon masculinity or femininity.

What I don't understand is why didn't they do chromosomal tests when he was a baby? Were they not available then, in 1988? Or why his parents / doctors didn't do this at the earliest opportunity.

Is it some evidence that sex and gender are more than just biology?

I think cases like these indicate that gender is not one and the same as gender stereotypes, as it is often insisted as an anti-trans argument.

In this case that internal gender identity might have been caused by biology, or have existed independently of it. Nothing much can be proven either way I think.

@Datun: Glad I could help!

I also think that there's an interesting point about choices being made to raise a child as female, simply because his exterior gentalia can be more easily modified to resemble, superficially ,female genitalia. In essence : no penis = female

It is so misogynist, isn't it?

I read about a small island tribe (I think it was) where women could change gender if they were infertile, and marry a woman, of whose children they woudl then be considered to be the father.
No working uterus = male makes a lot more sense, as the observable ability to give birth is much more impressive than some dangly piece of flesh between the legs.

Both scientifically incorrect, but the worshipping of penises is something that can only have come about after thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal brainwashing, whereas observing that women can give birth and men cannot is pretty intuitive - more intuitive than genetic fathers.

'Doormat' gender. I'm so using that. If anyone asks my gender and wants to know why I don't have one I will say it's because I don't subscribe to doormat gender.

So much quicker than a three paragraph essay on why I don't subscribe to female gender stereotypes.

In either case, had I been 'raised as a female', rather than raised as myself I two would feel that that was wrong, and I am one!

Some trans identified females I talked to were 'raised as female' by batshit insane religious extremist parents with very strict gender norms.

If you ask me, there's no question at all as to why they identify as something other than female.
No sane woman identifies with what the male-god-monotheistic religions consider a woman's duty. To be happy with that role a woman would have to identify as "doormat", and for some reason, that's not one of the new sparklegenders.

I think you have your answer then. If they had this range of physical experiences and were given medication, they would of course grow up thinking there was something different about them.

Yeah. Of course he'd notice he wasn't like "other girls."

Especially since, if he didn't have a vagina, they'd forcibly dilate a surgical hole in his body to render him fuckable for other males. That'd give him a hell of a trauma, which would make him jump at the opportunity to socially transition to be treated as a man, i.e. with respect for his bodily autonomy.

And I do think there might be something like a map of the body that's in the brain, and where the genitals might not match up with what is actually there in some cases. That's a disorder, (and people who suffer from it are not born "in the wrong body" but with something wrong in their brain) just like people feeling their left arm doesn't belong to them is a disorder, but I consider it possible to be a genuine feeling. Which might not be fixable, in which case surgery might be the only way to help the patient.

Whereas men who claim that their penis is in any way female are just MRAs by another name.

He was raised as a female and always felt it was wrong. He didn't know he was biologically male until he was 20. My point is, many people believe that sex is only about biology. I'm questioning whether his psychological discomfort shows there is another level of what makes someone male or female other than their biology

Your question is so confused. You're asking if there is more to it than biology but using a case of pure biology to illustrate it? This person was biologically a male but raised as a female, and felt wrong as a female and wanted to be a male. Which they were already in fact.

What has that got to do with someone who is biologically one sex and wants to be another? Nothing.

Fwiw, I'm not surprised that a male isn't convinced he is female when everyone says he is.

That doesn't have anything to do with being "born in the wrong body" which is used for males who aren't convinced they are indeed males & females who aren't convinced they are females.

"He was born with his organs on the outside, a gash where you would normally find genitals and his stomach"

I doubt that. You don't seem to know where the stomach is found in human beings.

A child with surgical scars, unusual genitalia, a history of being raised as both sexes, hormonal treatments to artificially induce a form of puberty, an absence of menstruation despite being told they are female...is going to feel different from all the other girls from a very early age.

Not that surprising that he retrospectively put two and two together and decided he was different from the other girls.

People search for explanations to explain why they feel they are different to their peers. In his case he had every reason to feel different, and upon discovering he was truly male I'm entirely unsurprised he felt this explained things for him.

Surprisingly, and in my opinion shockingly, people with intersex conditions have no protection under the Equality Act in the UK.
Then that would be a much better focus for legislative change than the proposed gender identity bill! Perhaps this is worth raising with Justine Greening. E.g. birth certificate can have intersexed rather than male or female. Someone thus classified can change to either male or female after the age of 18? This seems a worthy cause in its own right. By explicitly recognizing the few people who biologically don't fit the sex dichotomy, this could remove one prop in the campaign for subjective identity.

Surprisingly, and in my opinion shockingly, people with intersex conditions have no protection under the Equality Act in the UK

He knew his sex was unusual or indeterminate from quite an early age though. The article says that at age 10 the family won the battle to have his birth certificate legally changed, and he was on the front page of every paper.

It's not clear exactly how it was all explained to him (maybe he was told he was female-presenting intersex) but he obviously understood that he was unlike other girls in significant ways (ie would never bear children, had to take hormones to achieve puberty).

Eventually discovered that his chromosones were XY, and that was an identity he felt happier with. This very complicated case seems to me to be a perfect demonstration of why intersex people ask the trans lobby not to co-opt their conditions.

The only thing I think about this is this illustrates the correct definition of "assigned male/female at birth" rather than the TRA version of it.
That poor boy.

He appeared on all those TV shows with his parents in the late '80s. He knew that there was some doubt over his assigned sex. He also knew that this particular issue was not affecting his peers. No wonder he started questioning things very early. Those peers probably also knew about Joe's issues - they would have heard about it, even if they didn't understand it fully.

I've noticed from pictures that he has always had a very masculine facial structure, which is lucky for him now. I suspect fewer people were convinced of Joe's supposed femaleness than the gender cheerleaders of the time were prepared to admit.

I think he had a really rough time as a kid. Had all these health issues, serious bullying, everyone in the area knew about him/her and his/her problems. Taking pills, growing breasts but no periods whilst other were developing. All of it together can make you feel like an outsider.

I personally wonder if changing his gender (although it was to match his biological sex) was part of starting a fresh. If he was raised as a boy but still bullied etc it might of resulted in him wanting to be female as an adult, or various other problems. There is no way to know.

Joe was initially raised as a boy, wasn't he? I remember his parents being on TV when they were fighting to get his birth certificate changed. They spoke of being told to put Joel to bed one day, then treat him as Joella from the next day onwards, with a new feminine wardrobe.

Joe isn't intersex. He was born with a severely deformed abdomen.