Why do men use prostitutes?

Why not go the whole way and say that probably all women are prostitutes, given you can't be entirely sure of the motivations behind them having sex...

Grim.

assassinated

Yeah thats the vibe im getting

I dont like it

We are only a hop skip and a jump away from saying beautiful women who marry ugly rich men are prostitutes...which is a particular favourite of my dads

Goodness knows what he's trying to say. It comes across as him saying that the women in his racing example and the girl victims in the Rotherham case are all prostitutes, selling sex.

I wonder if the Orange President gives his wife money?

...or gifts?

In the horrific child abuse cases in Rotherham and the like, the young girls were groomed by men showering gifts on them, not giving them money

Money or gifts. Seems to amount to the same thing to me.

Why are you making a distinction?

LassOfFyvie

"It isn't consent if you would not touch the other person with a barge pole unless money was involved."

The two girls who I mentioned would not have been involved with various racing drivers or motorcycle racers, if those men had not been rich and showered them with gifts

Prositution - engaging in sexual activity in exchange for payment.
In the horrific child abuse cases in Rotherham and the like, the young girls were groomed by men showering gifts on them, not giving them money.

both ideologies have socially conservative perspectives

The liberation of women is not a socially conservative perspective. What a silly thing for you to say.

Men controlling women sexually by withholding or stealing resources from them then exchanging those illegitimately gained resources for sex is as socially conservative as you can get. Poverty is gendered: men have too many resources, women too few, hence prostitution.

The SNP has expressed support for it

But this is my point, the reason why feminism and Christianity have the same things to say on this topic is because both ideologies have socially conservative perspectives

Goodness knows I'm usually no fan of the SNP but the SNP is not a socially conservative party. Are you suggesting it has been infiltrated by radical feminists and evangelical Christians?

It’s socially liberal to have sex with someone who wouldn’t touch you with a barge pole? For whom it’s not fun? Please identify the socially liberal aspect of this activity.

Liberalism an ideology which emphasises the freedom of individuals with minimal interference (particularly with regards to moral or ethical questions) from the state. Hence, it's more liberal to allow people to decide for themselves what their own perspectives on sex are, and whether or not they choose to buy or sell it.

That's what the term "liberal" means. If you dislike it, then it means you do not have a liberal perspective on the subject... and that's completely OK. Liberal does not necessarily mean good and conservative does not necessarily mean bad (I'm not sure why so many think this), and everyone will have their different opinions on different subjects. That's what makes us all different.

It’s socially liberal to have sex with someone who wouldn’t touch you with a barge pole? For whom it’s not fun? Please identify the socially liberal aspect of this activity.

Prostitution is as old as patriarchy.

Prostitution has nothing to do with patriarchy. "Strong man" countries with old conservative patriarchal values (obvious examples would be Saudi Arabia, Japan, China, the United States etc.) criminalise the payment of sex because the men in these countries see it as their duty to protect the weak, and to protect women.

There’s nothing socially progressive about commodifying women’s bodies for the benefit of men.

I didn't say it was progressive. I said it was liberal. Those are two completely different things.

Well, virtually all religious people I've met have expressed the view that sex is for marriage only, and that having sex with a woman outside of marriage is wrongly "taking something" away from her. Hence the reason why the main driving force behind the Nordic model is parties like the DUP.

The SNP support it.

If those arguments "make sense" to you (meaning you agree with them and are sympathetic to them), then you should consider the possibility that you have some conservative opinions when it comes to sex

I have no problem with casual sex. I used to have a lot of it. As long as there is consent and it's fun for both , or more, no big deal. Please refer back to the comments someone made earlier decrying the young women and the Brands Hatch drivers. I thought what was described sounded like fun for all involved. No one being exploited or coerced- no issue.

It simply does not click in my head that anyone could be harmed by two, or multiple, consenting adults having intimate contact

It isn't consent if you would not touch the other person with a barge pole unless money was involved. The harm in prostitution is it reduces the individual woman to a masturbatory aid and the wider harm is it supports the dehumanising notion that it is ok to treat other humans as masturbatory aids.

The SNP has expressed support for it.

But this is my point, the reason why feminism and Christianity have the same things to say on this topic is because both ideologies have socially conservative perspectives.

The operative words are "consent" and "fun". Having to pay means there isn't consent. But if one or more of them would not touch the other with a barge pole unless money was involved there is no consent. The person being bought is a masturbatory aid. That is bad on an individual level and ultimately bad for society as it dehumanises both the prostitute and the punter.

This is your perspective. My argument is that someone with more liberal perspectives on sex does not see things this way.

Prostitution is as old as patriarchy. There’s nothing socially progressive about commodifying women’s bodies for the benefit of men.

Well, virtually all religious people I've met have expressed the view that sex is for marriage only, and that having sex with a woman outside of marriage is wrongly "taking something" away from her. Hence the reason why the main driving force behind the Nordic model is parties like the DUP.

The SNP has expressed support for it.

If those arguments "make sense" to you (meaning you agree with them and are sympathetic to them), then you should consider the possibility that you have some conservative opinions when it comes to sex

Nope I don't. I don't have any problem with consenting adults having casual sex for fun. I did a lot of it in my younger days. The operative words are "consent" and "fun". Having to pay means there isn't consent.

It simply does not click in my head that anyone could be harmed by two, or multiple, consenting adults having intimate contact

But if one or more of them would not touch the other with a barge pole unless money was involved there is no consent. The person being bought is a masturbatory aid. That is bad on an individual level and ultimately bad for society as it dehumanises both the prostitute and the punter.

Radical feminists and other feminists opposed to prostitution are not socially conservative, quite the contrary.

It is a conservative perspective, by definition. Please note that your quote from Pope Francis,

"this is not making love. It’s torturing a woman. Let’s not confuse the terms"

... could have just as easily been written by a feminist opposed by sex work. Christians and feminists opposed to sex work say the same things when it comes to this topic.

That is one interpretation of a religious view.

Well, virtually all religious people I've met have expressed the view that sex is for marriage only, and that having sex with a woman outside of marriage is wrongly "taking something" away from her. Hence the reason why the main driving force behind the Nordic model is parties like the DUP.

I have also heard the argument that it is harmful to society- that it cheapens and trivialises something which should be meaningful. In the case of prostitution it devalues and cheapens something priceless which should be freely given and shared for mutual enjoyment.

Indeed, that's another perspective on sex that I heard from countless of my religious friends back in my school days.

Oh I'm a not particularly socially conservative but hardline atheist and those arguments make sense to me.

You can be socially conservative and be a hardline atheist. Being an atheist has nothing to do with being conservative or being liberal. If those arguments "make sense" to you (meaning you agree with them and are sympathetic to them), then you should consider the possibility that you have some conservative opinions when it comes to sex.

I have very liberal views on sex. It simply does not click in my head that anyone could be harmed by two, or multiple, consenting adults having intimate contact, and I cannot see how something as simple as sex can be "cheapened" because it does not have a whole lot of meaning to begin with.

Radical feminists and other feminists opposed to prostitution are not socially conservative, quite the contrary. Women as sex objects is not socially progressive, again, quite the contrary.

In any event, here's Pope Francis on prostitution as torture, quite distinguishable from sex outside of marriage:

"this is not making love. It’s torturing a woman. Let’s not confuse the terms"

cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/03/19/pope-says-prostitution-tortures-women-apologizes-for-catholic-clients/

Religious people have always held a deeply negative view of prostitution because they believe any sex outside of marriage is inherently harmful to women

That is one interpretation of a religious view. I have also heard the argument that it is harmful to society- that it cheapens and trivialises something which should be meaningful. In the case of prostitution it devalues and cheapens something priceless which should be freely given and shared for mutual enjoyment.

Oh I'm a not particularly socially conservative but hardline atheist and those arguments make sense to me. I don't necessarily agree in relation to sex out with marriage or even casual sex but I do agree re prostitution.

Thoughts? It's a Christian-inspired movement apparently.

Of course it is. Most opposition to legalised sex work comes from people with socially conservative values, such as religious people.

The church hardly has an inspiring record on women's rights and status,

Actually, the church has always taken the view that sex outside of marriage is fornication, and fornication is a sin. Religious people have always held a deeply negative view of prostitution because they believe any sex outside of marriage is inherently harmful to women. I thought this was common knowledge.

Within the UK, the criminalisation of payment for sexual services was spear-headed by the DUP, a Christian fundamentalist party which also wants Christian creation science taught in school classrooms. The news that Christian groups are pushing for sex work to be made illegal should not be a shock to anyone.

Why do men use prostitutes?

Because men want, need, crave sex.

Women can take it or leave it.

I don’t believe this is true. I think men are socialised to believe they are entitled to the type of sex they want with they women they want. If a 60 year old man wants to anally penetrate an 18 year old woman, prostitution affords him the opportunity to do so. Women are not socialised with this entitlement.

@HorsewithnoLycra

No, of course it's not a reason to do nothing. The police have to work with the victims and earn their trust. Successful prosecutions of the ringleaders is what needs to happen, and keeping the victims safe.

But trafficking is already against the law, so it's not about creating new laws, but acting on the existing legislation.

Why do men use prostitutes?

Because men want, need, crave sex.

Women can take it or leave it.

= Instant imbalance - we have what they want which they can't abide so if they can't attract it, they will ask, wheedle, demand, take, steal or buy it at will.

Advantages:

1 they get what they want

2 women have no power or control and are kept in our place

Prostituted women are trafficked, brutalized, brainwashed, forced.

Those who say they are empowered and in control of what they do are (if not in denial) simply fuelling and reinforcing the myth that female flesh should be for sale. Part of the problem.

It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that the paper you are promoting was written by someone who advocates for prostitution. It's an important factor in assessing the credibility of research which purports to be evidence led rather than ideologically driven.

I've waded through enough punter babble that I generally avoid following links to potentially dodgy websites.

Professor Neumayer is a professor of Environment and Development at the LSE who writes across a wide range of issues. He does not use his paper to advocate for any political response and, in fact, notes several factors that need to be considered in a political response that are outside the scope of his research. The paper was published in the reputable peer-reviewed World Development journal. Examples of current articles from this journal are:

Why do countries emulate each others’ policies? A global study of renewable energy policy diffusion

China in Africa: Competition for traditional development finance institutions?

The relationship between LGBT inclusion and economic development: Macro-level evidence

Ronald Weizer is a sociologist at George Washington University who writes almost exclusively to advocate for legalising prostitution. The paper you have linked to was published in Sexuality Research and Social Policy, a peer-reviewed journal which is an official journal of the National Sexuality Resource Centre, an organisation which describes itself as a community of gender and sexuality studies researchers, educators, and activists committed to understanding and addressing the intersections of race, class, gender, and sexuality in the pursuit of social justice Examples of current articles include:

Improving the Health of Cisgender Men Who Identify as Bisexual: What Do They Want from Interventions?

Supporting LGBTQ+ Foster Teens: Development of a Relationship-Focused,Self-Guided Curriculum for Foster Families

Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms

pie when you comment that "no competent editor of a scientific journal should have accepted" the data in the LSE paper, what are your credentials to justify such a statement?

@Horsewithnolycra

Exactly! I would have gone into depth about all the ways in which they were wrong but I had an awful headache and needed to lie down. If I have the 'pleasure' of seeing them again I will definitely have my talking points ready.