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Original poster

Trans rights and consultation on legal gender - cold hard facts and sources please?

104 replies

mrsroboto · 23/07/2017 20:50

I've been reading with interest the various trans threads going on, in reference to this news item (I know it's been a longrunning discussion) Consultation on changing legal gender to be launched

There's been a lot of chat and theorising and I admit I had previously assumed it was the same as all the American hysteria over women with big hands using ladies' bathrooms. HOWEVER, obviously there's a lot more worrying things being implied. (I'm aware that people are worried about female-only safe spaces and medical definitions of male/female).

I'm not familiar with TRAs or their arguments so please can someone clearly answer some of my questions for me, with links to sources rather than generalising where possible? (I ask this respectfully as I know there is a lot of anger and disbelief and infighting which are making threads hard to follow, and I'd like to provide links for others - plus I tend not to believe stuff people write on the internet if there isn't a credible source - my STEM background).

  1. From the news article, it looks like they want to remove the 'gender dysphoria' requirement for the 'Gender Recognition Panel' to allow someone to be recognised as the other gender. The 'gender dysphoria' definition in the DSM-5 looks fairly 'open' in that I would have thought most trans people would easily meet (things like 'A strong desire to be of the other gender'). The new requirement would be "a simple administrative process".

What is the trans argument for not even wanting to meet the gender dysphoria diagnosis? (Please don't just answer 'misogyny' - I'm trying to understand if there's supposed to be a reason - too difficult to diagnose? Symptoms that aren't listed in the DSM?)

  1. What is the simple administrative process? Has this actually been proposed yet? (Ppl assuming one can just sign a piece of paper) Can you change back and forth regularly?
  1. is there anyone who genuinely benefits from this? Are there distinct groups of trans people, such as 'genuine' gender dysmorphia people vs men who want to access women's prisons etc? what about in-between?
  1. is there a question about lowering the age for physical transition? I'm aware of people claiming that children as young as 9 are starting to transition with drugs etc - any sources? I find this crazy.

As I said, I've read other threads with lots of good points about the implications so am familiar with a lot of the arguments but less familiar with actual facts, legislation, sources that might give an idea as to what could happen. Hoping a wise MNer or two can help but not wanting it to become a pile-on. AND apologies for not being up to speed yet.

OP posts:
Datun · 24/07/2017 18:42

mrsroboto

Currently gender dysphoria IS considered a mental disorder.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.

But the party line is that once someone has treatment, and therefore transitions, they no longer have gender dysphoria so they no longer have a mental disorder.

So they get their treatment because they have an illness, then they no longer have an illness, so the condition can therefore be considered something that should be accrued civil rights. Women's rights, in other words.

Of course, if the treatment is stopped, they will revert back to gender dysphoria. It's not a cure, it's a treatment. The same way that people who are depressed and have antidepressants - they are not cured. They are treated.

It's a workaround to have your cake and eat it too.

I have a disorder, I need free treatment. Thank you. Now I no longer have a disorder so I can have civil rights, because you wouldn't have given them to me on the basis of a disorder and I wanted to access free treatment.

Gender dysphoria is a disorder, being trans isn't.

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

AppleBlossomTimeNow · 24/07/2017 18:33

Marking my place as I want to understand arguments

Original poster
mrsroboto · 24/07/2017 18:32

To clarify my earlier post, it's been suggested that trans ppl want to lost the 'mental illness' stigma of gender dysphoria, hence the proposals, but it's already not classed as a mental illness. So that shouldn't in itself mean no diagnosis is required.

OP posts:
Original poster
mrsroboto · 24/07/2017 18:30

The 38 degrees petition didn't have any links to sources on it so I can't imagine anyone would take it too seriously tbh. I never sign petitions with no citations.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 15:47

Given a quick scroll finds petitions calling for people to be sacked and other rather.. borderline.. subjects I think that women saying they're miffed and want to be heard isn't in the least bit controversial.

Absolutely. How can they justify harassment of named individuals under their "values"?

DJBaggySmalls · 24/07/2017 15:19

Theres a new petition

www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/41304-say-not-dangerous-gender-identity-bill?tc=tw&tcid=37972918

We really need one at the official gov website, but they've stopped it;
petition.parliament.uk/

sticklebrix · 24/07/2017 14:56

Thanks Pencils. I emailed them.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 24/07/2017 14:42

So they understand the need to campaign for safe spaces.. unless it's women doing that campaigning.

Right, well. 38 degrees entirely blocked then. fuckers.

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 14:39

38 degrees have provided some detail on their deleting the petition:

twitter.com/radfemfatale/status/889474301711196161

"this petition plays a lot on fear and discriminates against trans women"

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 24/07/2017 14:35

I've filled in the contact us asking what exactly was inappropriate about it.

Given a quick scroll finds petitions calling for people to be sacked and other rather.. borderline.. subjects I think that women saying they're miffed and want to be heard isn't in the least bit controversial.

PencilsInSpace · 24/07/2017 14:24

email for those not on twitter - [email protected]

IndominusRex · 24/07/2017 14:21

The petition being deleted makes it more important for everyone to fill in the survey!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 24/07/2017 14:15

@mrsroboto - your last post seemed to address a comment I made, but I'm not sure what it's subtext was?

Elendon · 24/07/2017 13:59

I really love spending loads of money on facial creams, makeup, waxing, hair, clothes, shoes, handbags, botox, facial treatments, facial fillers. It keeps me conformed to societal expectations, ensures I look good in employment and for society and means I get to spend the rest of my wages on keeping a roof over my head and feeding my family.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 24/07/2017 13:45

@38_degrees

This is 38 degrees twitter handle. Please tweet them to tell them how it unacceptable to censor women

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 24/07/2017 13:35

! The petition has been deleted? Fucking right women are being censored and are angry - but it's OK, we're all trans:

They may feel so unhappy about conforming to societal expectations that they live according to their anatomical sex, rather than the gender they feel themselves to be

Please can anyone point to a woman that's happy with societal expectations placed on them? I don't think anyone can.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 24/07/2017 13:20

38 Degrees have deleted that petition. Total censorship. We are not even being allowed to object to this shit.

This is the 'Progressive' Left

Elendon · 24/07/2017 13:19

And many women have breast implants because their breasts aren't good enough and they want to live up to 'societal expectations'.

Liposuction because they don't have the 'societal expectation' of what it is to be female.

colouringinagain · 24/07/2017 13:15

Fascinating but disturbing thread Sad

Elendon · 24/07/2017 13:14

From the link Mrsroboto

The first signs of gender dysphoria can appear at a very young age. For example, a child may refuse to wear typical boys' or girls' clothes, or dislike taking part in typical boys' or girls' games and activities.
In most cases, this type of behaviour is just part of growing up and will pass in time, but for those with gender dysphoria it continues through childhood and into adulthood.

This in on an NHS website?

Adults with gender dysphoria can feel trapped inside a body that doesn't match their gender identity.

They may feel so unhappy about conforming to societal expectations that they live according to their anatomical sex, rather than the gender they feel themselves to be.

What does this even mean? Lots of people, mainly women feel unhappy about conforming to societal expectations

They may also have a strong desire to change or get rid of physical signs of their biological sex, such as facial hair or breasts.

Women get rid of facial hair and all other hairs on their body in order to conform to 'societal expectations'.

WombOfOnesOwn · 24/07/2017 13:12

Andrea Dworkin talked a lot about this topic of strange bedfellows.

Here's a way you can look at it. The right wing wants women to be private property -- kept by a man, locked away from other men, and protected like a delicate flower or a rare bird.

The left wing wants women to be public property -- i.e. free love, give it up to everyone, Slutwalks, don't be a bigot by refusing to sleep with transwomen, sex work is empowering.

Feminists don't want women to be property. That means that when a bill comes up that pushes society toward a "women as private property" structure, feminists lobby with left-wing causes against the right.

But when society tries to invade women's privacy and make them essentially publicly available to men in their most private spaces, that's a perfect example of a time when feminists can and should expect to ally with the right wing.

Original poster
mrsroboto · 24/07/2017 13:03

Sorry not had time to read today's posts properly yet but just wanted to respond to this:
In other words, there does not need to be a diagnosis because there is no illness, just a case of mislabeling.

On my phone so may not link but nhs website on gender dysphoria makes it clear it's already not classed as a 'mental illness'

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 24/07/2017 12:40

I see there is a group of conservatives from within the party who have come out in opposition based on 'Christian values'.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 12:31

Men want to gain entry to womens spaces for a variety of reasons - it might be sexual or validation or a mixture of both. It doesn't matter, women are not allowed to say no.

And YY.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 12:30

It's a massive bait-and-switch when you think of it. We've all been told we must be accepting and inclusive because dysphoria is so very distressing and leads people to self harm and suicide which is why we must affirm people's identities, even at the cost of our own rights.

Yet here we are with the proposal that people don't need to be suffering from dysphoria, let alone doing anything about it, we must still be accepting and inclusive and affirm their identities at the cost of our own rights.

That's so right, it is a bait and switch. I don't see that without dysphoria they should get any special rights which trump women's (of course I don't think dysphoria is a good enough reason to dump women's rights either, but at least it is one).