Jeremy Corbyn speaks about trans rights

TBH the dh going on about daily mail sounds like a bit of a sneery superior bell end. Give me a DM reader over that type any day.

RogueBiscuit

I've just had a look at Corbyn's Facebook page. There are a fair number of gender critical comments on there. The usual arguments coming back about intersex, why do you care, transwomen are women, you're not a proper feminist, etc.

But people are definitely are definitely holding their own.

I thought the tide was beginning to turn until Corbyn made this announcement.

There are definitely more people who are critical now than there were a couple of years ago, though.

Maybe this will force the issue. And the conclusions that have been reached here, will just have to be played out again in public.

On the rare occasion I have seen this being publicly discussed on mainstrain media, issues like autogynephilia, the abuse if you question the ideology and the censorship of women aren't often mentioned. The discussion seems to remain family around the concept of trans and the abstract idea of it all, not the reality.

Few people could fail to object to the vitriol that women are subjected to. But it rarely gets a chance to be aired.

People think it's harmless. They don't understand this new wave of transactivists.

Someone on that page said this isn't about transvestites this is about trans-people. Well transvestites are transgender. This absolutely include them.

Oh, plus of course for sport, suggesting that if they do that, they should probably eliminate the weight classes for sports too - Mike Tyson vs. Prince Naseem Hamed would be a totally fair fight right? (my knowledge of boxers is very out of date...)

Argh, DH just referred to "Daily Mail-type moral panic" when I tried to discuss this with him. How to convey that a 6'2" well built man may not understand my 5'1" petite build's desire for female-only spaces and level playing field for sports?!

I use the tipsy gay male rugby team example - (NATGMRTALT) - a 6' plus, well built, post-winning game drinks team of men can be easily imagined, as can the antics they would be getting up to. Explaining that to a 5' tall woman the whole world is a bit like that (obviously not all the time.. some of the time it's like the district line tube on a hot summers day - sweaty and full of armpits at face level)

RogueBiscuit

You're kidding!!! Did they give a reason?

All the Facebook sites that question transactivists that I'm on are regularly deleted. They start up under another name.

This censorship of women's objections is frightening.

Corbyns not a man who copes well with being challenged, I've noticed. Especially by women. The rictus of fear and rage that takes over his face whenever Laura Kuensberg gets into him is very telling.

That's awful, Rogue. The kind of hateful things that people are allowed to say and the horrible videos they are allowed to post on Facebook... but you can't challenge self-determining gender -or sex really.

I'm furious too. I raised these concerns on Jeremy corbynns Facebook page. I wasn't abusive. My Facebook account is now disabled.

Argh, DH just referred to "Daily Mail-type moral panic" when I tried to discuss this with him. How to convey that a 6'2" well built man may not understand my 5'1" petite build's desire for female-only spaces and level playing field for sports?!

He is achingly liberal and has a man crush on Jeremy Corbyn though.

I asked him just to read things with a more critical eye and, while celebrating the advances of one marginalised group, to consider the costs to another.

Paris Lee, unsurprisingly, is right behind Corbyn on this. I can just see him polishing his halo.

mobile.twitter.com/parislees?lang=en

One person tweeted that one of the rights they need/want is the right to be legally addressed by the pronoun they choose....can I have the legal right to insist I'm not labelled as 'cis'?

I think that's one you're not allowed to object to. If you do you are cis scum and it's probably "actual violence".

Can readily see girls thinking, hang on I can just identify as a boy!

I suspect this is what's bringing about the girls at one girls' school which has recently allowed pupils to "identify as boys" and be referred to as "he" doing so.

This whole issue enrages me although Corbyn espousing this viewpoint doesn't surprise me - for some reason I already thought of him as being someone who did. I've never thought of him as being someone who's particularly bothered about women and think he'd not be too concerned about the erosion of women's rights this is bringing about; I'd hope many Labour MPs and members might be more concerned though. It's so concerning.

One person tweeted that one of the rights they need/want is the right to be legally addressed by the pronoun they choose....can I have the legal right to insist I'm not labelled as 'cis'?

The prison authorities warned the government that people would exploit this law, but no one thought much of it at the time (except feminists).

Can I just say that this came about initially about 10 years ago. I was a male screw in a female nick and I fought tooth and nail, along with a few other officers, not to accept male to female transgender on my wing. To my knowledge, to this day no transgender people have gone onto that wing (vulnerable prisoners).

I think they were glad when I fucked off to a male jail!

PolarBearGoingSomewhere

Thankfully my children are past that stage, but I so get the fear.

What girl does not go through a gawky stage where she hates every part of her body, and yet is still objectified?

Can readily see girls thinking, hang on I can just identify as a boy!

Goes online, finds find the tribe, starts the brainwashing.

It's horrendous. It's terrifying. And it's so fucking regressive.

This is a form that was issued by a UK gender clinic. It's very telling. It's also quite reassuring. But only in that they at least recognise these reasons.

I am massively fucked off about this too. I have three girls who deserve to be able to get changed in a penis-free environment and succeed in sports against other XX chromosomes - who are likely to be comparable weights, muscle mass etc. Self-identification is great in theory, if male and female biology was equal, rape didn't exist and male pattern violence wasn't a thing.

I have read with interest the issues around "men menstruate too" this week and I have grave concerns that much of the gender non-binary appeal is a rejection of, frankly, irritating and uncomfortable aspects of being female once puberty hits. I do not want my children to feel that because they like playing tractors or hate having periods or fancy people of the same sex, there is a pathology to that. It's normal ffs. It's being so bloody regressive while masquerading as "right on".

Equality for all... except women.

Ktown

Sorry I missed off the rest of your questions. In terms of prison, currently I believe it is taken on a case by case basis. The prison authorities warned the government that people would exploit this law, but no one thought much of it at the time (except feminists).

It is definitely happening. Violent men are being housed with women. Both pre-and post op.

Women's sport is also now the domain of men who think they're women. They have to reduce their testerone levels in order to compete, but that doesn't take into account their bodies which would have benefited from going through puberty on testosterone and developing stronger muscles. The lowest limit that a man must achieve in order to compete is higher than any natal born woman can achieve.

However there has been a recent case of a boy at college in America competing as a girl, taking all the titles, without any kind of medical intervention at all. No hormones, no nothing. Just self identification.

Things are changing culturally far quicker than they are legally. But the law can't wait to catch up, it seems.

Many men have competed against women and won titles. I haven't seen women identifying as men being able to achieve this when competing against men.

Ktown

What is gender?

Two schools of thought.

1. Gender is simply the expression of femininity or masculinity. You can get masculine girls, feminine boys, or vice versa.

What constitutes masculinity and femininity changes over time and history.

Gender has been used to imply that femininity is solely a woman's domain, because it includes characteristics like being nurturing, passive, pretty, delicate. Politically those characteristics have been utilised to keep women in the home. The masculine characteristics of leadership, strength, clear thinking, etc, have been used to allow men to get educated and run the world.

Transsexuals used to want to present as women, but knew they were men, just wanted to present in a feminine way because they wanted to be treated as a woman. They perceived the treatment of women to be something that they would like themselves and felt that they could best express themselves in a 'womanly' way. It wasn't political and they did not see it as humans rights issue. If they passed they used the ladies and women allowed this as a courtesy.

In 2004 the gender recognition act made it possible to legally change your sex, based on a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

2. The term gender has now been split into gender identity and gender expression as a result of objections, largely by feminists.

Gender expression still constitutes femininity or masculinity (appearance). But gender identity is now being characterised as an internal feeling, unprovable, unverifiable and entirely subjective as to whether you internally feel as though you are a man or a woman.

It can't be described in words, you just know.

Hence, numerous articles and studies trying to prove the existence of lady brains and men brains.

The theory being that it is your brain which dictates your sex, not your body.

Hence lady sticks and lesbians should sleep with women with penises.

I've tried to be neutral, but I may have left an opinion slip in, here and there...

But at least I didn't say fuck a thousand times.

Thank you stickle I will have a look

Not a fan of that Helen Lewis article, actually.

She seems to lose the thread when switching between describing sex segregation in prisons and trans people living in the prison estate of their 'professed gender'. Prisons are segregated on the basis of sex OR gender, surely, how can they be both? Or is she only trying to convey that prisons make exceptions for trans people? If so, she doesn't communicate it well, in my opinion.

Not convinced that women with naturally high testosterone levels are evidence of 'the blurry boundaries of biological sex', either.

Great links Assigned. Thank you.

Iamtheworwax somewhere further down in feminist chat is a thread with examples of letters to MPs. I don't have time to look for a link ATM, but scroll through and you'll get to it eventually.

All those saying they are writing to Corbyn and their MPs, what is it you are saying and what affect will your MP have? I'm not the best at political stuff or writing letters but I would like to express how concerning I find this.
I couldn't care less if a man wants to wear a dress or make up, but I don't want to lose my women only spaces to allow them this.

Only thing missing from that article was reference to crime statistics e.g 'women' rapists.

I don't understand why sex can be changed on legal documents especially birth certificates. Sex isn't something that can be changed. If male and female means nothing, why bother recording it on the first place.

Changing my date of birth would do wonders to my CV and dating profile, can I wish away the true date and change my birth certificate?

That is a decent article. I read it with a growing anticipation the "But ..." but no, she kept it balanced and sensible all the way through.

Mumsnet are in a perfect position to open a supportive of trans but not supportive of unscientific nonsense discussion on this.
They just need the balls!!