'Gender identity' and discrimination

I just wonder if a survey was sent round my office about discrimination on the basis of gender or gender identity whether any one would give a second thought to it not simply meaning "male" or "female" and answer accordingly.

You made the point that natal trans women can't get pregnant whilst natal trans men can. Statistically they will be a minute %age.

It would make more sense to have separate data but if they are going to lump trans persons with their equivalent biological sex both it seems a wee bit pointless to avoid telling them how you have been discriminated against.

It does appear that Athena Swan doesn't make any distinctions between women and trans women. So it's not necessarily your uni that's incorrect but the application process itself. However, if they are collecting data, there's nothing stopping them collecting separate information on women and transwomen which they can then combine for the athena swan application. It may help them identify specific areas where people are being discriminated against.

Make them clarify it- do they think discrimination on the basis of gender identity is the same as discrimination on the grounds of sex?

If they say yes, list all the ways you think you have been discriminated against.

If they say it is different then why are they only asking about 1?

I get that . I still think your response is that Athena Swan's website refers to 2 protected characteristics- sex discriminatory and gender identity discrimination.

ECU’s Athena SWAN Charter was established in 2005 to encourage and recognise commitment to advancing the careers of women in science, technology, engineering, maths and medicine (STEMM) employment in higher education and research

In May 2015 the charter was expanded to recognise work undertaken in arts, humanities, social sciences, business and law (AHSSBL), and in professional and support roles, and for trans staff and students. The charter now recognises work undertaken to address gender equality more broadly, and not just barriers to progression that affect women

So why are they only conducting a survey on one of them?

I've been thinking about this and I think you might want to ask why your employer is conducting a survey referring to only 1 of the 9 protected characteristics.
(Age.
Disability
Gender reassignment
Marriage and civil partnership
Pregnancy and maternity
Race
Religion and belief
Sex
Sexual orientation )
Are they confident they are not discriminating on any of the other 8 grounds?

Is this survey because they are unsure of how they deal with gender reassignment issues?

But as you do not fall within the protected category on which they are conducting the survey any response from you, beyond you are not within the protected category , is not particularly meaningful.

I really don't think it cuts across the other characteristics in the way you fear. It should protect Joseph in accounts who was good at his job but ceased to get pay rises or promotion as "Josephine".

Dear FurryGiraffe (Cross posting as it is relevant to this thread)

So it seems ATL, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers Union in the UK would like to coerce their members to attend compulsory "gender diversity training".

I am thankful I left the profession as I would not put up with this idiocy.

I can just imagine it.

"Good morning all, may we do our routine gender and pronoun check before we start the class as I would not like to cause offence." "Ok lets begin" - points to first student - "and what is your preferred name and pronoun today?" "Oh how lovely so pleased you have chosen a different one to yesterday that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside". Points to next student "Oh you are staying the same today how sweet" an hour later having gone through all preferred names and pronouns and not actually started lesson "Well that's all for today....."

www.atl.org.uk/latest/atl-comment-compulsory-gender-diversity-training-college-staff

Indeed Datun. Controlling, aggressive and in my opinion misogynistic and/or once again blaming women for their suffering/anything they might do. Women are forced/pressured into accommodating them, pandering to their wishes and attacked for not doing so. What also frustrates me is how many seem to be blind to this, even falling over themselves to be "allies" to them.

nolove

Some of them threaten you with rape, others cry/threaten suicide and ask you how you can be so mean.

It's all the same controlling mechanism.

A man who not only couldn't give a shit about boundaries, but actively seeks to centre himself in dismantling them.

Very much so. Then also proceeding to abuse women who object (I'm not sure if this one does but I've seen many do), post aggressive images aimed at women, generally respond in a manner which suggests not only do they not care about women's boundaries but actually thrive upon making women uncomfortable, knowing they're backed up by many often well meaning but in my opinion completely misguided people. To me it seems to be the erosion of women's spaces through aggressive and threatening means.

But the ones who are pushing it are the ones who don't give a fuck about women. The very fact that you want in, should keep you out.

Precisely. It's a massive red flag.

venusinscorpio

God, that link. I knew he was an attention seeker but I hadn't realised how, even when he gets massively negative reactions, he still does it.

It's not just a thick skin, it is a determination to ride roughshod over anyone who objects.

A man who not only couldn't give a shit about boundaries, but actively seeks to centre himself in dismantling them.

And they wonder why we don't want them in our spaces!

I'm sure there are loads of transgender women who are not like this. But the ones who are pushing it are the ones who don't give a fuck about women. The very fact that you want in, should keep you out.

I've seen quite a few like them in how they post on social media, attacking women, revelling in their imposing on women's space and so forth. It frustrates me no end so many can't see this for what it is.

YY.

Re casino meltdown guy:

He's a massive attention seeker and seems to like to wind people up. Some of the responses he gets in this conversation are awful but I think he knew perfectly well that was the response he would get.

archive.is/m4fHJ

That video, my goodness. The principal person in it is not unique either; I've seen quite a few like them in how they post on social media, attacking women, revelling in their imposing on women's space and so forth. It frustrates me no end so many can't see this for what it is.

I have to think carefully about how vocal I'm prepared to be. My department has a fair sized contingent of trans allies. It's a bit of a minefield.

I empathise - though it's not the same or as bad, I have these frustrations with much of my school's Feminist Society (and feminist discussion online everywhere except here, another reason this board is so reassuring). There's so much I want to get into on this but don't feel I can (which is ridiculous on my part, really). I'm lucky two of my closest friends agree on this and have begun to broach it "gently" with a couple of others.

So all these universities that are automatically turning the ladies' loo into the gender neutral one but keeping the mens' are actually in breach of discrimination law?

Not necessarily. The keeping the men's is a matter of convenience as more users can use it more quickly than the other type and many women do not want to go into a loo which has a urinal.Does making the other loos gender neutral result in a shortfall of women's loos?

I personally would not be bothered by a gender neutral loo , depending on the layout but it may well be discriminatory towards female Muslim students.

Sorry, that last paragraph was mixing my threads up with the trans-man who menstruates .

He was in the forces for 10 years, apparently. Not sure how true that is.

For me, it's the wholesale deception.

Whether it's motivated by delusion, AGP (which I think it is in this case), or misogyny or illness. Whatever the reason, The fact that they have managed to convince so many people to go along with it is staggering The fact that he had the sheer brass neck to post that on the Internet and expect some kind of positive reaction, is also staggering.

There were about 8 1/2 thousand comments on that video, most of which have been deleted. Almost all of which were negative. So he made another video!

What was enlightening to me was that there were many comments from other transwomen calling him out. Saying if you don't even make an attempt to pass, you can't expect women to be comfortable. Use the men's until you pass etc.

Adding that even if he couldn't ever pass, the fact that he attempted to, by wearing a wig, make up, dress, etc, would at least show women that he was serious and less of a threat. To me that's just more deceit and missing the point entirely.

The woman in the OP, is different. At least she understands the plight of women. But it's still expecting people to go on along with something that is simply not true. For whatever reason.

Oh dear. I don't know what to say.
Doesn't really seem like a women by any stretch of the imagination but definitely someone that would have benefited from some sort psychiatric intervention.
I guess it's a very "welcoming cult" for the vulnerable. Or just an excuse to be a brazen misogynist.

*links

WhattheChuff

Actually, that's not even half of it. Gendertrender has an article. He has 'adopted' 14 year old trans-girl, boy, I can't remember? He is definitely heterosexual, though.

Calls women twits and bitches.

He has form for 'playing the victim'. Under multiple Reddit accounts someone is always going to get sued.

He dances in a bikini on tables, clearly not being held to the same standards that a woman would be.

www.instagram.com/p/BWZln9xjPlR/

And here he is toting a gun talking about something that I think must be along the lines of bitcoin (I honestly couldn't put myself through watching it).

But yeah. Just like a woman. and obviously no problem at all sharing a loo with him.

And this is progressive. Not about mentally unstable people, at all.

Gendertrender link.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

Sorry the legs are playing up, try clicking on the text, not the picture, if you are interested.

Fucking hell Datun that video is just phenomenal.

It was all me-me-me. I thought those security peeps seemed quite reasonable in their handling of it. It seemed all about validation and fuck all about using the toilet. You could tell there was male socialisation there because not once did the person acknowledge how it might make other people feel. Feel sorry for this person as they clearly have a lot of distress but goodness me.

Sorry for all the 'fucks' I just find it all so devoid of logic.

And one other question. If a transwoman wants to go to the ladies loo, but she is disturbing the majority of the women in there, can something be done about that based on biological sex protection?

Or do the identity laws conflict with it currently?

Lass

Well that's very reassuring.

So all these universities that are automatically turning the ladies' loo into the gender neutral one but keeping the mens' are actually in breach of discrimination law?

Sex is a protected characteristic under UK law. It is discrimination if something disproportionately affects one sex more than another. It does not cease to be discriminatory just because it affects 1 man and 20 women.

Pregnancy and maternity have their own protections.

The Canadian case about expressing milk would have a different result here as (a) the vast majority of people affected would be woman and (b) it would be protected in its own right.