I'm fucking sick of male violence

Your first thought is to make this thread about your hurt feelings

No, my first thought was probably just like yours. I'm not an alien species.

However, when I read a post that rejects the distinction between criminal and innocent men I chose to challenge it.

You're quoting David Cameron? The guy who set Britain's future on fire and ran away?? Interesting choice. I doubt he feels an ounce of guilt for anything.

I'm quoting an offensive thing he said, I'm not quoting him as some sort of nice person, quite the opposite. "The full quote is "For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone." I was drawing a parallel with that here, because it's not enough for a man to be innocent of any wrongdoing, we are supposed to be ashamed and "take a look ourselves in the mirror" regardless of whether we have done anything.

Regardless no one said anything about guilt. Your response to a very sad thread about horrific male violence was 'don't make me feel bad' which about sums up the whole problem really

I was responding to a specific post which said "Men act like the men who commit these acts are an aberration and nothing to do with them!" which clearly rejects any such distinction between the men who commit the acts and the men who don't. It then went on to say that men need to take a look at themselves in the mirror.

I think it's perfectly natural to have a reaction to that, when you feel you are being blamed for horrific things that make your own blood run cold, that you need to look at yourself in the mirror because things are happening that fill you with horror just like they do everyone else. And if you try to point out that this man was an aberration people like you call you pathetic. You're against male violence, I'm against male violence, but it seems like it's you vs me even though we should be on the same side. And since you mentioned it, why should someone feel like it's ok to make someone feel bad for something they didn't do?

I think the only odd person here is that "cadnowylly" individual who is seriously concerning.

For those who said there's a spectrum.

For those who said most men wash their hands of any responsibility.

For those who called out the victim blamers.

This story from Australia proves you right, unfortunately.

amp.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/opinion/women-shouldnt-have-to-play-cool-even-at-a-sporting-match-20170704-gx44k0.html

cadnowyllt I am without question a seriously odd person, so guilty as charged.

However no I don't go into every interaction with women thinking anything like how I could come out on top in a physical altercation. In fact I don't think the though has ever crossed my mind once. What I was trying to shine a light on is the background in which all interactions between men and women operate on.

For example a lone woman is far less likely to come up and criticise me, if say I was in her way or some such. Also take the traditional role of getting women home safely, I've done it so many times in so many contexts I wouldn't be able to say how many. I've even done it a few times for men who were particularly timid. However most individuals see that as a "nice thing" and invariably it falls under interpersonal interactions where people will feel the need to reciprocate, thus advantage which was what I am trying to get at.

The actual reality of the situation at least for me is that if something bad happened to any man, woman or child I'd just been with I'd feel rightly or wrongly that I hadn't done all I could if I hadn't taken steps to ensure they got home safely after a night out or whatever. So I mainly do it to satisfy a neurosis in my own head, but even if I explain that to people they usually don't get it. In a way they are actually doing me a favour as I won't worry.

I've stood up to male violence several times in my life and it always scares the shit out of me. However the one time I came off particularly worse and got stabbed (luckily it was only superficial)! There was this absolute angel of a woman who cleaned me up, sorted me out when I was quite shaken and embarrassed, so if anything my attitudes since have been trying to pay that kindness forward.

However my point still stands being a non-violent man in a world with too many violent ones confers tremendous social advantage, especially with women.

I'm a man. I had no idea. That sounds awful. What can I do to help?

Would be nice. (Not you Derv).

Quentin - "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them [or hurt their feelings]; women are afraid that men will kill them"

All men benefit from male violence because no-one knows which ones are going to actually go there. And most men use that to their advantage, even if it's only once every 5 years or something. So, nothing will really change. Because that's another thing that feminists want to make men give up, along with their free time they are entitled to whilst exploiting the labour of women at home.

I'll never forget a thread on here that was on this very theme and a male poster was getting all het up about how he was a lovely sensitive soul and we shouldn't tar him with the the violent man brush. Then said of course he would challenge other men on their insensivity towards women because he was lovely and all up with how bad it is for them and used the example of threatening to beat the shit out of his daughter's boyfriend if he raised a fist to her.

Hehehe

I don't really want some bloke telling me I'm not in danger, that my feelings in this misogynistic society are not valid, that the very real concern that I'm statistically most likely to be attacked in my own home by someone I know is not a real 'fact'.

It's been pointed out a couple of times lately that there is a huge difference in the state's and general public's response to terrorist atrocities and to what is effectively the terrorism that women and girls have to accept on a daily basis.

You're quoting David Cameron? The guy who set Britain's future on fire and ran away?? Interesting choice. I doubt he feels an ounce of guilt for anything.

Regardless no one said anything about guilt. Your response to a very sad thread about horrific male violence was 'don't make me feel bad' which about sums up the whole problem really

Cad I think Dervel's point went right between your ears

Can I also point out how utterly and disappointingly pathetic I find it that men's response to the abject misery and suffering caused by their fellow men is almost always 'I didn't do it, not my problem'? How are men not ashamed of that response?

Don't know if that's aimed at me because of my response but I certainly don't think it's not my problem - for a start I have daughters (one of whom has been a victim of terrible male violence), a wife, a mother, sisters, sons who may be victims, and I myself have been a victim - I absolutely think everyone has to be part of the solution, but that doesn't extend to accepting guilt. And your post summarises why I felt the need to use the phrase "rounded on for sharing the same anatomy as this monster". To paraphrase David Cameron, "it's not enough to be innocent", you're supposed to feel guilt and shame regardless.

This has been a very stimulating thread for me. There is epidemic of anxiety and depression which mostly affects women. Cbt - lauded and promoted by the nhs - says 'Don't worry! You are not in danger!' and 'Feelings are not facts' and I think hmm.

I don't really want some bloke telling me I'm not in danger, that my feelings in this misogynistic society are not valid, that the very real concern that I'm statistically most likely to be attacked in my own home by someone I know is not a real 'fact'.

(At the same time we are told 'trust your intuition' and god forbid if you 'had a feeling' that someone was not to be trusted and you were attacked by them it would be your fault.)

But my life is being sucked away by agoraphobia and that is doing me no favours. It's hard to know how to live.

In a radical feminist/separatist world would I be afraid to go outside?

Men have always got the advantage over women cad. That is how privilege works.

but living in a world where it does and can happen always hands me something of an advantage in my dealings with women

You are a seriously odd person. You always think of yourself having an advantage over women in your 'dealings' with them because you'd probably come out on top in a fight ?

OlennasWimple yes, and yet for men anal rape is treated like a joke, whereas women wouldn't treat it as such among themselves and I don't think you'd hear a ('normal') bloke making a joke about a woman being anally raped. (I know awful rape jokes are made, but I mean not in the same context as blokey 'prison rape' jokes).

hordes of police even ffs...

I think we (society generally) don't look at male violence as we feel powerless to stop it. We don't like feeling powerless so we look at what we feel we can do something about, like women's behaviour and then we can feel like we have some semblance of control.

I don't know if I could stop a man intent on murdering a child, it's one of the many things that terrifies me as a parent.

user - football crowds are an interesting example. Even well behaved groups of men contain the threat of menace. DH is a big, strong bloke who has gone to football matches all his life, and feels very at home in that environment. I've walked along in a crowd of 15,000 people (probably 10,000 of them adult men) leaving a stadium feeling very vulnerable when I wasn't with him. He doesn't really understand why I feel like this, because "they're alright, nothing would happen to you there".

But I do think that men do understand the threat that men can pose: remember the "backs against the wall, boys!" jibes that men used to make if a gay man was amongst them? That's men right there recognising that other men can pose a threat (along with a goodly dose of homophobia)

Friends DH was grossly offended by this

What a self-centred, arrogant and obnoxious individual he sounds. My 15 year old brother manages to grasp this.

I think we do realise it, but then feel entitled for seeing ourselves in this protector role. Which is really a bit of a farce as we're increasingly getting out of shape, and if we were so marvellous it wouldn't have been possible for a 5 year old to get beaten to death in a park in broad bloody daylight!

Men don't seem to realise how much of a threat women perceive them to be. Perhaps they don't want to realise it.

They don't. I was speaking to a friend's DH the other week and he was saying how once he was walking home from the station late at night and there was a woman just in front of him. Said woman turned round to look at him and then crossed the road.

Friends DH was grossly offended by this, why would she automatically assume he's a threat just because he's a man....bla bla bla. Most have no idea.

think if all women showed men that it was not acceptable then it would happen a lot less but unfortunately, women let it happen, police let it happen, so why would men stop when they get away with it so easily? Why is it the victim getting the blame here and the police are added as some kind of afterthought? It's as much the responsibility of men to 'show men that it was not acceptable' but really it's against the law and immoral to beat other people and ordinary civilised men have no desire to do it so what do we have to 'show'? If we pretend that violence is some kind of ordinary default state for men we feed into the problem. The incentive to stop is being a civilised, respectful person in a civilised society.

Can I add that I'm tired of my neighbourhood being paralysed by lairy drunken football crowds and swarming with police like this is a normal state of affairs? Why is it tolerated? In the 18th c lairy drunken women in the street were thought to indicate total social breakdown but here blokes do it every weekend. I like the football ground being nearby, I like the noise and bustle of it all but the everydayness of the threat of violence (taken seriously by the police) seems so unnecessary. We don't need hoards of police to control the crowds at the Sunday market, why do we need them at the football?