Want to talk

Today 07:37 user1498662042

My question is this (and it is a theoretical one, not an attempt to elicit sympathy or blame any group of people): if I am a man and have privilege and power, why have I been victimised and why I am disadvantaged?

Why was Obama one of the most powerful man in the world, but black people are still oppressed?

My question is this (and it is a theoretical one, not an attempt to elicit sympathy or blame any group of people): if I am a man and have privilege and power, why have I been victimised and why I am disadvantaged?

So we should see you as an individual but you are free to lump women all together and blame them for your crappy circumstances?

I have done no such thing.

When I said it wasn't my concern, I meant I had no business wading into discussions that concern women's experiences at the hands of men.

You would be very welcome if you have anything useful to contribute.

Whining 'but I'm not like that, I have a shitty life' isn't helpful to anyone, male or female.

My concern is not women's discussion of rape, or FGM, or domestic battery, or pornography, or prostitution or matters that men have no business interfering in: my only problem is people telling me I have privileges because I am a man, and that I am defined by being a man, and that what happened to me was my fault.

So we should see you as an individual but you are free to lump women all together and blame them for your crappy circumstances?

We all have our stories. You know nothing of the personal struggles of individuals on here.

My concern is not women's discussion of rape, or FGM, or domestic battery, or pornography, or prostitution or matters that men have no business interfering in: my only problem is people telling me I have privileges because I am a man, and that I am defined by being a man, and that what happened to me was my fault.

So we should see you as an individual but you are free to lump women all together and blame them for your crappy circumstances?

We all have our stories. You know nothing of the personal struggles of individuals on here.

As a human you have a business to stand up for people being abused whatever their sex.

I couldn't agree more. When I said it wasn't my concern, I meant I had no business wading into discussions that concern women's experiences at the hands of men.

It indeed would be a fine world if everyone stood up for everyone being abused, regardless of their gender, would it not?

My concern is not women's discussion of rape, or FGM, or domestic battery, or pornography, or prostitution or matters that men have no business interfering in:

As a human you have a business to stand up for people being abused whatever their sex.

There would be very little incidence of any of those things if men didn't actively do them so I would think they are just the people to do something about it. (NAMALT obvs.).

My concern is not women's discussion of rape, or FGM, or domestic battery, or pornography, or prostitution or matters that men have no business interfering in: my only problem is people telling me I have privileges because I am a man, and that I am defined by being a man, and that what happened to me was my fault.

I don't want anyone's support, attention or sympathy.

Look, user, one of the things we talk about in feminism is men feeling like they are entitled to have women's time and attention. It's also a massive frustration that when women try to talk about feminism, men derail the conversation into matters that have nothing to do with feminism.

Looking at your posts here, are you aware that's what you're doing? You sound like you need support, but this isn't the place for that. One thing feminists have to fight against is the urge that's drummed into women from childhood to nurture and caretake men's feelings, and you are trying, on a feminist board, to trigger that response. Please stop.

And this is an issue for both right and left wing class or identity politics. What happens when the EDL supporter meets a Muslim who isn't an extremist? Does he go "oh well this one's ok, I guess I better not make any snap judgments about Muslims again, as after all they're all individuals"? Not really. He judges them in the same way, because that's what class politics is: putting people into boxes and stereotypes regardless of their individual characteristics.

So what happens when you encounter an individual who does not fit into your generalisation?

but the identity and experience of an individual should not be seen as predicated on their gender, colour or creed

Of course you can't take an average and say that's how an individual will definitely be - that's not how averages work. When a large number of a certain sex, a certain race, or a certain religion have a similar experience though, it's going to be useful to use that generalisation though.

As real as the fact that as I live in a remote place, I pay a premium for imported fruit and veg. the class of 'imported veg' costs me more, even though, on an individual basis, cucumbers are very expensive, and apples aren't). On a class analysis, locals are paid less than European immigrants, even though on an individual basis that might not be the case, and is the reason that non-locals are charged extra tax, and required to have health insurance.

Of course people have to be seen as classes for practical purposes; but the identity and experience of an individual should not be seen as predicated on their gender, colour or creed. When Martin Luther King said he envisioned a time when a little black girl and a white boy could hold hands, he meant a time when the colour of their skin would not matter; when black people and white people would have equal status as individual human beings. He was envisioning a DEclassification.

But I'm not special - I don't think my suffering is at all extraordinary or unusual (I have sisters, friends, who have all had experiences) - Class analysis is real.

As real as the fact that as I live in a remote place, I pay a premium for imported fruit and veg. the class of 'imported veg' costs me more, even though, on an individual basis, cucumbers are very expensive, and apples aren't). On a class analysis, locals are paid less than European immigrants, even though on an individual basis that might not be the case, and is the reason that non-locals are charged extra tax, and required to have health insurance.

We all want to be treated as individual cases, but once there are 4 million people, you're going to make some generalisations occasionally if you want to make any headway on anything.

I'm not special. I'm just a person who has suffered like you - a person who deserves to have their story heard without being invalidated or silenced - whether that's by men who do not like their power being threatened by you speaking out about a rape, or by anyone else who for any other reason does not want to hear what has happened to you - that wants to stop you from talking about what you have been through.

People being people, they get together into tribal groups; and each of those groups has their narrative about how the world is. These narratives may have validity, but the problem is that when anyone says anything which threatens the integrity of the narrative, the group ensures that individual is silenced.

This is just what people do. They are herd creatures.

Individuals, men and women may experience terrible suffering throughout their lives. You can have an ideological framing of the types of suffering that they may have a higher chance of experiencing or analyse the ways that they experience that particular type of problem and the institutional response (or lack of) to it. The space that you occupy in society and the services that you access contribute to statistics which go on to shape type and amount of provision. The Labour and Conservative party do this and come out with different political ideologies in how to respond to it. Feminism is another lens of unpicking and challenging why things are the way they are.

User, I do hope that life will not continue to be as bleak as what it has been for you and I wish you well in that.

I've been treated appallingly - repeatedly disbelieved, sexually violated, force fed drugs that turned me into a zombie

Haven't so many of us.

You are nothing special. You are an individual just like all of us.

I remember walking into the prenatal ward after 2 hours in a waiting room, stopping every couple of minutes to breath through the stabbing, unbelievable pain, and thinking that when I'd been in A&E with my son 6 months earlier, the guy with the broken leg (and I've broken a limb - the pain was nothing in comparison) from football had been given a wheelchair and pain meds before he'd even been in the room 30 minutes. I didn't get anything until 10 hours later when my (male) partner refused to leave the desk until I had something (I was in too much pain to move, let alone demand help)

I remember thinking with my second boyfriend, as I pushed on his chest saying 'no' that this wasn't right, or when again during labour, when I'd explicitly told them that I didn't want a sweep, the consultant painfully shoved his hand up anyway and did it.

I remember being shooed out of the room and told to ask the chemist for otex when I tried to suggest that the pain I was feeling wasn't right, and that perhaps they should have a look - but they didn't until I had permanent hearing impairment in one ear.

Class analysis is an average. I take no more offence at it than I do any other. The fact I'm white, gave me a leg up, there's no denying it. The fact I have a foreign name hampered me in the UK, but gave me a boost abroad. Life is unfair, it often sucks. Doesn't make you special or mean that class analysis isn't useful.

The thing is Bertrand the moment you classify someone you de-individuate them. You're perception of them is limited by the boundaries of your classification. They become a man, a woman, a Jew, a Muslim first and a unique, contingent individual second. I'm not sure about that.

OK, well I'm personally in charge of the list of people included in feminist class analysis and I'll take you off it if you can explain what that will achieve.

We are all statistics.

How crap your life is has nothing to do with the fact that 1 in 4 women will be raped by a man. Or that 2 women a week will be killed by a man.

Indeed it doesn't. I have nothing to do with any of that.

Oh dear
I'm not sure what you want us to say? It sounds shit but really has nothing to do with feminism. How crap your life is has nothing to do with the fact that 1 in 4 women will be raped by a man. Or that 2 women a week will be killed by a man.