Twitter and where to begin with comments about "terfs"

Miffer - I just went into that Reddit thread you mentioned. There is an interesting comment from a poster who describes herself as gender neutral who says "I'd love nothing more than to just not be acknowledged as any sort of gender unless I attempted to present as such, although I know that's mostly a pipe dream. But really, really, if I could stop falling victim to "mansplaining," that'd be great. It's more frustrating to have my intelligence undervalued than anything."

But, just in case we were concerned that sanity was prevailing, another poster observes that street harassment isn't pleasant, but it is also a privilege because it means that they pass...

Reddit's a scary rabbit hole, isn't it, Miffer. OTOH it's a useful source because it's completely mainstream and freely available. It isn't some hidden corner of the internet or a semi-private FB group that isn't intended for wider consumption. I always think this is what TRAs are prepared to say when they know others might be listening - what do they say in private?

Anyway, you and Vestal are both wrong, it's TERF mis-gendering that causes actual violence to TW, obv

Actually Vestal I think you will find womens lack of imagination lead directly to transwomen being killed.

Bigot.

/sarcasm

If a woman is raped by a stranger, he's likely to murder her afterwards to cover up the crime.

If a rapist attempts to rape a male trans, then finds out he is male, he might murder him (though perhaps not, because male upper body strenght means a male can fight back better), but not rape him, which means the trans is better off than a woman.

It is really fucking obvious, and if those assholes had a bit of empathy for women, they'd acknowledge that they certainly don't have to worry more than actual women. (Also, they CHOSE it. Actual women don't.)

I couldn't be arsed reading the whole thing properly after that opener (smile respectfully? Flattered?), but the general gist is in the line. -

Many women worry about being sexually harassed or assaulted by men. I also have to worry about what will happen when men find out I’m trans

It expands that transwomen also have to be scared of murder (not just the run of the mill assault and harrassment that women face because obviously we never get murdered).

It also says that it's cis womens fault they are murdered (obvs) because reasons.

Miffer

Is that person trying to say they pass so well that they're constantly accosted?

Only I'm not sure '“Ayo miss, you are really beautiful.” and “Damn, ma, you got a fat ass", would describe many transwomen.

Or are they just getting a high on being objectified, but pretending it's unwelcome.

Christ Olenna that second link is awful, only took me two minutes to stumble accross this gem.

"Every morning when I walk down the street in Bedford-Stuyvesant, my Brooklyn neighborhood, men try to stop me because they are attracted to my body.

“Ayo miss, you are really beautiful. Can I have a moment of your time?” “Damn, ma, you got a fat ass. What’s your name? Do you have a number?”

I usually smile respectfully and keep moving. More often than not, I hear footsteps behind me. I am flattered and terrified; I appreciate having my beauty affirmed, but I don’t know what will happen once this person comes closer.

Many women worry about being sexually harassed or assaulted by men. I also have to worry about what will happen when men find out I’m trans"

From The New York Times no less.

*drop the t

Op you need to follow lots of 'terfs' and link them in when you counter these tweets. Pick and choose, the 'male' terfs can be very helpful for lefty right on dudes spouting crap, then there's gender critical tw, the detrainsioners, the lesbian's who can argue the drop the time case, the mothers of children sacked into this and so on.

For anyone unsure about Twitter I am very old (so my joints tell me) and it took me yonks to figure out mumsnet but twitter was a doddle. Go try.

Vestal - Did you not feel appalled by the death and rape threats against "terfs" that are everywhere on the internet?

Only a tiny amount of folk get caught up in this stuff - it just flies right past vast majority of folk

This Reddit page is a useful / horrifying collection of things that have cropped up on social media regarding Terfs

This Reddit page is a useful / occasionally horrifying / often informative overview of some of the things that transgender men and women discuss in fairly open view

I'm not on Twitter, if that makes any difference.

I've seen it on tumblr, too - I had assumed they didn't make an effort to hide it, and spew their hate paroles on facebook and the like, too.

But yeah, it is probably limited to social media. I imagine they'd not put it on the pages that are meant to "inform" the general public; only on the pages where transactivists talk to each other and confirm each other's opinions.

Something good has come out me poking around on Twitter, trying to work out how it really works: Magdalen Berns has been posting in the last couple of days, both about herself (great shot of her with a completely shaved head hooked up to electrodes) and feminism.

I'd never actually seen or even heard about death threats and rape threats against 'terfs' until I came on mumsnet, VestalVirgin - and I'm not sure whether I'd heard the term terf either (usually 'transphobic 'and even more commonly anti-LGBT - as it was strongly presented as just part of LGB rights). I'm not on Twitter, if that makes any difference.

I mainly frequented LGBT websites, had LGBT feeds coming through on Facebook etc (mainly US sites) - and the message was that T was part of LGBT rights, the people opposing it were anti-LGBT and this opposition was being organised by far right evangelical Christian organisations. Other stuff might be 'all over the internet' but we all see our own version of the internet which tends to reinforce one view.

If what you are dealing with on Twitter, is people who are seeing rape threats/death threats against women and are okay with it and understand that you are a feminist not an anti-gay right-winger etc then, I don't know that there is anything you can say to change their minds. However, I think there are other people who can be persuaded - both people who see themselves as pro-trans and people who are just indifferent to the whole issue because they don't see the implications for women.

Thanks for the link, ALittle. Not currently planning to talk to those people again, but perhaps in a year or so I will feel like giving them a second tenth chance.

Just wanted to add that I'm someone who was previously pro-trans and appalled by the 'bigotry' on Mumsnet - and very nearly left Mumsnet because of it - and then actually started listening to the arguments and had my views completely changed.

Did you not feel appalled by the death and rape threats against "terfs" that are everywhere on the internet?

It is one of the things that puzzle me most, people looking at this vile hatespeech and nodding and saying "Oh yes, the people making those threats must be right. Feminists are just the worst"

I think it's important to be clear about supporting the rights of anyone to wear whatever clothes they want, behave in traditionally masculine/feminine ways etc and not to be discriminated against because of that.

That doesn't really help, I am afraid. Remember, terf is short for trans exclusive radical feminist. Radical feminists are, by definition, pro LGB, anti gender roles, et cetera.
(And I was attacked with "terf" screeching and death threats by someone who knew damn well I am a feminist and couldn't care less whether men wear skirts, etc.)

Just wanted to add that I'm someone who was previously pro-trans and appalled by the 'bigotry' on Mumsnet - and very nearly left Mumsnet because of it - and then actually started listening to the arguments and had my views completely changed. I can't actually pinpoint what it was that changed my mind (which is unfortunate as that might help with others).

I think a few things that stand out that most reasonably sane people would see as wrong are male rapists (with penises) seeking transfers to women's prisons and men competing in women's sport. I would just encourage people to engage, to listen to another viewpoint and to have a conversation - because they don't actually have any valid counterarguments to some of these things - all they can do is shout bigot and TERF back.

I think it's important to be clear about supporting the rights of anyone to wear whatever clothes they want, behave in traditionally masculine/feminine ways etc and not to be discriminated against because of that. Also to be clear about being pro-LGB rights, to separate it from the TRA lobby and point out the conflicts/how this is harming LGB people.

As someone above has said, some of us know 'old school' transsexual people who aren't like this so anything that generalises about/insults all trans people isn't going to fit with their experience.

"TRA: Google is your friend. A woman is anybody who self-identifies as a woman. Therefore if you ask someone for their Gender, and they say woman, then they are a woman.'"

It is odd. Any definition that includes the very word it is trying to define isn't one I'm going to find very useful. If you try to replace the word woman (within their definition) with their definition of woman you end up with 'a woman is anybody who self identifies as anybody who self-identifies as anybody who self-identifies as...' to infinity.

One thing that worries me is that social media can be used, even innocently, to perpetuate canards and common biases. I have had my views changed by social media, but for the most part, there is little persuasion going on.

But the danger, to me, is that constantly seeing things stated on social media reinforces and perpetuates them. In America for example you will often see something like "if good people are allowed to openly carry guns, crime rates will fall - criminals will think twice". Now in reality it is not so simple. Not at all.

Now to try and discuss that using logic and data seems to get you nowhere. But if left unchallenged, as it seems commonsensical, it solidifies. It is the great danger behind common stereotypes.

I think there is at least some value in saying, "No you are wrong". Even bluntly. Just so that it doesn't embed as truth.

I thought Narcissa had problems with her hands so had to stop gaming for a while. So there is a reason for the no gaming. Back at it now though.

Sure, a hand problem could account for the lack of usual output but it doesn't change anything I said. I am am going by Narcissas own account (who, incidentally, doesn't ask for money based on gaming output anymore).

Collidascope

I just witnessed earlier a radfem challenge a TRA (woman) on what the definition of a 'woman' is.

RF: OK, But what is a woman? How do you define it?
TRA: Google is your friend. A woman is anybody who self-identifies as a woman. Therefore if you ask someone for their Gender, and they say woman, then they are a woman.'
RF: But what exactly is a woman?

The fact she had the nerve to say 'Google is your friend' and then proceed to spout identity nonsense is hilarious, especially seen as asking Google what a woman is results in the top answer being: An adult human female.

Is that about 140 characters? I've said similar before.

Say "99.93% of the population have XX or XY. Male OR female. The rest are genetic mutations. Being one sex but believing you are the other is a psychological disorder, and I won't buy into the enabling of mental disorders".

Wax

It was the Brazilian penis waxing for me. I thought it was simply fucked that the Equal Opportunity Commission said there was a case for discrimination.

Now I wish I had a link to that; the trans cultists I used to be on talking terms with (not anymore) always deny that this happens, or claim that's "exceptions" and not "representative" of trans ... dunno if realizing that they are the ones whose activism lead the the EOC making that decision would be the tipping point.

Did you genuinely not realize that this was the consequence of pretending that males could be real women, same as actual women?

That's what I can't wrap my head around; there are people who believe that male rapists won't be locked up with women in women's prisons - but why do they think this won't happen? Actually female sex offenders are sent to women's prison, so why wouldn't males who have been declared to be legally women be?

Nice, slug. Bit heavy on the Marxist terminology though. I haven't been indoctrinated properly to understand it.