Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

Well I can't answer all your questions but you have a right to wear a hijab if that is your choice.
As for men should protect women, I'm afraid I believe that no man of any faith is capable of taking the dustbin out efficiently never mind protecting women. I've always managed to protect myself quite well thank you.
There is far too much abuse against women from men so I think it's very important to be self reliant and teach your daughters how to be self reliant. Then you will be safe.

If someone chooses to wear a headscarf as their free choice, does it matter that they also know that their family would be disappointed or embarrassed if they didn'? That they would be seen as lesser by some members of their wider community, or worse? Or that they would feel uncomfortable about breaking away from the norm, perhaps not up for having to justify and discuss their decision all the time?

I have an issue with the idea of "modest" dress anyway. It generally only applies to women - the dictionary definition of this meaning tends to specifically refer to it applying to women only. I don't think that girls and women should be told to be modest. I don't see what is worthy or valuable about being modest.

Six - I agree. I'm an atheist but I can see why people choose to commit to a faith and have belief in a god, but I think the scriptures from all religions were written as a way to create and reinforce power structures and hierarchies, with women always being at the bottom.

No they'd find a way to excuse it/blame her for sure Stateless. Thank you for starting this thread, it's a really interesting discussion!

Stateless- my personal view is that all religion was devised and written by men for the purposes of men. It evolved at a time when women had no agency beyond reproduction and being "chattel".

In the Koran there is a section on Property and the laws relating to that, followed by the section "Women". It explicitly states that it's permissible to lightly beat your wife, that a man may marry up to 4 women as long as he can treat them all equally and that women are entitled to half the inheritance if men and so on. In Christian tradition, the Old Testament tells how Eve is was the Original Sin - pain in childbirth being her punishment from God. It also states that women should obey their husbands which is why this was part of the Christian marriage ceremony up until fairly recently.

Women could argue that they know and accept all this as is their free choice as a feminist. It is slightly perverse though, in my opinion. To me, spirituality could do without this kind of dogma.

I totally agree that where female dress codes are concerned, you will be criticised whatever you do and as women, this is so ingrained in us, that we can never actually be sure if we are making a free choice or not.

On the protection issue, I think that kind of dynamic between a man and a woman is inevitable within most relationships. It has nothing to do with religion, more to do with physical differences and basic human psychology. Of course my husband would protect me if it came to that, but there is a huge difference between the need to protect and the need for ownership / control. I think this gets obscured by religion.

Excellent comment IfNot!

Personally I don't think religion (any religion) would even exist if men didn't feel some need to supress female sexuality and power. Every religion has elements of treating women as though they are dirty and lesser, so I would struggle with the idea that you can follow any organised religion and really be a feminist.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me though!
I mainly see the hijab as a symbol of being a Muslim, much like the yamulke that orthodox Jewish men wear. I have seen lots of girls wear it as a fashion accessory (beehive style) and have fun with it, so I don't see it as necessarily anti feminist in itself. I do have a problem with niqab, as I don't think that any woman can be physically comfortable in it.
I also don't believe men are inflamed to rape by the sight of someones hair. Part of feminism is about seeing men as adult, humans who have responsibility over their own actions. Just like women are. Equal.
As for protecting women-the men who are expected to do that are effectively protecting women from other men. This is entirely a male problem, so I don't see why women should have to change anything about their dress or behavior.

OP I crossed posts with you. I totally understand your reasons for wearing it, but I do wish that other people treated you well and as their equal both with or without it (and I mean both men respecting you without and people not being abusive or islamophobic with).

Oh and don't be nervous to post on this board - I found it extremely welcoming when I started to and I've learnt so much from many of the fantastic women who post here.

None of us make choices in a vacuum but we have to fight to make sure women and girls can make these decisions as freely as we can in my opinion. I know lots of Muslim women and girls wear the hijab and many also don't so it's good there's the ability to make this choice. Likewise many women and girls choose to wear make up and have a genuine love and interest in it - I have friends who see it almost as an art form - but I can see that others can and do feel pressured into it. There's no reason men and boys shouldn't be free to be interested in make up as well but appearance is something women are judged on more, no matter our choices or what we do. I think feminism in this respect is about making sure all these choices are made freely and shouldn't be about judging women or girls for making any of them.

Of course I'm far from an expert in any of this so can only state my opinions and hope I'm making sense!

Hijab to me is the same as eg stripping. Liberal or 'choice' feminists will say that as long as the individual has chosen then it's a positive act. Radical feminists will say they're bad for women overall because they perpetuate objectification.
I'm not going to say that you're wrong for wearing one, but I would like to see a world where women dont have to have restrictions on their appearance for the sake of men, either to make them more attractive or more modest.

Agree with PP also about choices not being made in a vacuum - like Offred in THT chose to be a Handmaid's because the alternative was the colonies, or someone having to choose between having sex for money or not being able to buy food. A shit choice isn't an empowering one.

Lass you replied quoting something I posted and said "you" so I thought you could be. Now you're insinuating I'm being disingenuous which is bizarre seeing as I've never said I've not heard that expression. Not entirely sure why you're saying such a thing but never mind.

The kind of oppressive regime which forces women in some countries to "cover up" wouldn't stop if no Muslim women in other countries wore the hijab. Muslim women freely choosing to wear the hijab as many do in no way validating it being enforced - the only responsibility for that lies with the oppressive men enforcing it.

I absolutely agree that you should have the right to choose to wear the hijab but I think that it is naive to suggest that any of us make truly free choices....all of our choices are influenced by the culture in which we live. Why should women have to wear the hijab in order to be free to be judged on their words and actions rather than their appearance?

NoLove did I say you used that term?

Are you so disengenous to suggest you haven't heard that expression? There have been numerous threads on MN discussing "modest clothing" with posters describing themselves as "dressing modestly"

I also completely agree on some feeling the need to wear make up and high heels. It's been discussed on another thread but there are all sorts of things many of us do which we could say we're choosing to do, and no-one is forcing us, but we still do them - I sometimes wear make up and often shave my legs for example, and could claim them as entirely free choices, yet my brothers never would.

I'm sure you'll get some really great answers, my thoughts are less coherent and academic, but here's what I think about your points.

The issue with women being protected is the fact that they need to be in the first place. If men would stop harassing and raping, then other men wouldn't need to protect us. Women should not fear telling men to leave them alone or that they are not interested, without fear of being assaulted because pathetic arse holes can't take no for an answer.

There is no right way for a feminist to dress. You should be able to show skin and wear a hijab, but it should be YOUR choice. Some women are coerced into porn/prostitution and forced to show skin, women in some countries are forced to cover up. Neither of those things align with feminism.

I am not religious. I have no idea why women are expected to cover their hair in so many different religions, but if women want to do it then fine, that's their choice.

StatelessPrincess bear in mind Lass isn't even a feminist and regularly states this.

I've never used the term "dress modestly" except to criticise it.

Thanks StatelessPrincess I'm glad