Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

Quite Captain.

I shave my legs, wear make up, have long hair, wear dresses. I could say all these things are my free choice and I'd probably claim they were but they are clearly done in the frame of the male gaze. My brothers don't do any of these things...so how is it truly free? Why would women/girls choose to do all these things which make us appear in a certain way and boys not? I clearly see myself through the male gaze even if I don't think I do and even though I'm aware of it.

This has been a fascinating thread so far and I think people have really tried to understand each other.

I admit I have felt that wearing a hijab doesn't fit with being feminist before. But then like people are saying, when you look at western 'choices' like leg shaving, how free a choice is that really? I do choose to moderate my Western dress style (ie not go for really short skirts or low cut tops) so I don't get unwanted male attention - I wonder how different this really is to covering in principle.

I count myself a feminist while not beating myself up for not being a perfect one but striving to be a more authentic or 'better' one by thinking about the choices I make and beliefs I hold. So it wouldn't make sense to say that Muslim women couldn't be feminists if they are doing a similar thing.

I think some posts have been Islamophobic but am in the pub at the moment - will post at greater length in a few minutes when I'm home.

I would find it difficult to be a feminist alongside any religion, as they all seem patriarchal and controlling of women. Maybe most religions are stuck in the past, and if they want to recruit new members they need to be more progressive.

Being honest I find it difficult to understand an acceptance of the premise that the response to male predatory behaviour is for women to hide from it.

That might be vocally, emotionally or physically.

The flaw is not with a woman having the body that might arouse sexual interest, rather the man who believes it's acceptable to think that's an open opportunity to verbally/emotionally/sexually abuse someone because of their sex.

I don't want to be disrespectful of your faith, but the hijab and burka don't speak to me as woman's rights - even when you choose to wear it, which is not always a choice for many women-
rather it's a tool to make women "responsible" for the sexual control of men. Ergo - we rape/abuse it is your fault because we didn't choose to cover ourselves up.

I can't think of any major world religion which doesn't preach patriarchy, least of all Islam.

Yeah. I know Christian feminists, but they get by by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they consider the word of god, and which not.

This is possible because the Bible is a collection of texts, and it is not wholly impossible to question the authorship.

A holy book that is allegedly the word of god as dictated by an angel ... it is a lot harder to ignore bits of that; I'd imagine.

Agreed, Morris.

Some women prefer the patriarchy.

I can't think of any major world religion which doesn't preach patriarchy, least of all Islam.

Noloveofmine
No need for the pearl clutching about islamophobia.

The remarks on this thread are about a religion in the context of feminism. Post about other religions and feminism and you will doubtless get similar analysis and criticism. Feminists tend to be critical thinkers. We are not restricting our remarks to Islam, so relax.

Some horribly Islamophobic messages on this thread. I'm shocked.

I think some feminists struggle with the hijab because it is women changing their behaviour to "cure" the problem behaviour of men. Why can't men deal with their own behaviour?

*It's commonly held view that Muslim men and women view western women who don't wear the hijab as sluts

That's not my experience and I have met lots of Muslim men. Having been married to one for years I spent a lot of time with him and his friends and was rarely treated with anything other than total respect. I would have long and involved conversations with Muslim men about all sorts and they certainly didn't disdain me or consider me a slut. Nor did my husband!
No doubt there are schools of thought that women who dress less than modestly are immoral but it's not a widespread belief as you seem to think.*

All I know is that i've travelled in countries (where the dominant religion is muslim) as a young woman without a male and the sexual assault and harassment was at a ridiculous level.

Stateless you are very noble! I'd be mainlining Netflix if I were you

Have you read The Handmaid's Tale? Then you could watch the series and chat on the thread That's about the thick end of the wedge and pretty thought-provoking.

Not to do with religion, but I found Vanessa Olorenshaw's Liberating Motherhood an interesting read.

*covered bits of bodies

My issue with "dressing modestly" is its a slippery downward slope to being completely covered, like wearing a burka.
It's entirely subjective. If knee length skirts are acceptable, 1 inch above is immodest. Women start wearing longer skirts so as not to risk being immodest. Then knee length skirts become immodest, as most women wear mid calf. Eventually ankles are risqué. The only way this ends is with full body covering.
Nothing is immodest. Bodies aren't shameful. Men need to stop seeing the coveted bits of women as sexual.
There is no "natural" way to be covered. In Tanzania, it's totally normal for women to be fully top less but ano leg above the ankle showing is scandalous.
As soon as you buy into wearing the hijab "for modesty" you buy into policing women's bodies. Not ok. (Wearing the hijab for cultural/personal reasons is fine but as others have said, it's like leg shaving and socialised to be "normal" rather than having any practical purpose)

f men were doing the same I'd have no problem with it

This. If men had to wear the same apparel as women in the extreme case of niqab, burka etc. you can bet your boots the rules would change overnight.

I want to add of course I believe in a woman's free choice to wear whatever she wants, whatever religion she practices. If that's the hijab so be it. But no specific clothing should need to be worn to make a woman feel more safe. If men were doing the same I'd have no problem with it. But essentially it boils down to avoiding sexual violence and that's what bothers me.

In Islam, women automatically loose custody of children above 7 (boys) and 9 (girls) to her husband. If the said husband dies the children are given to their paternal grandfather and uncles. Don't you think it's unjust? This creates a situation where women don't get divorce because they know they'd loose their kids.
^

That's true. Men can make you feel scared of course and obviously physical assault is another matter entirely. I was responding to the pp's comment about Muslim men's perceptions.

Princess
Can't you see how there is no equality between men and women in Islam? Why don't men cover heir hair "to be judged on their words and actions alone"? Why do women need "protecting"- (IE controlled), instead of focussing on protecting women, can't we focus on controlling dangerous men who are complicit in harming women?

Women should not be controlled and minimised in order to live a safe life.

I would honestly find it difficult (no, impossible) to be a feminist if I were religious. I believe organised religion and feminism are essentially incompatible.

This is because I believe that no man has the right to tell any woman how she should act, what she should wear, what rules she should follow etc., simply on the basis that he is male. That is a sense of unearned entitlement too far.

For example, it is purely semantics to debate whether " to beat" means "to beat" or something else because the real issue is the assumption that the male has the right to be in charge of the female.
All main stream religions come back to the belief to a greater or lesser degree. Why? Because when these religions were invented the males set the rules and they set them to advantage themselves. There is no logical or rational reason behind this - it is power politics.

This isn't personal OP but in general to claim to be a feminist and to be religious requires a certain degree of cognitive dissonance IMO.

Feminists aren't perfect and they make unfeminist choices, they're still feminists.

Totally agree. I think feminists are far less judgemental than people think they are.

We live in an imperfect society and make our way as best we can. I would never judge an individual woman for wearing niqab/shaving legs/wearing high heels/sending her DD off to FGM. Enthusiastically or not.

Hell I don't even blame men who don't see it.

It's the system I judge. The system that gives us these loaded choices.

What you believe or not won't stop them harassing you as you walk by, or sexually assaulting you.