Some questions about feminism from a Muslim.

Indeed Vestel.

When this is the kind of message we receive from a young age through media, advertising (image attached) it's easy to see how it becomes ingrained.

I think I've realised from this thread that the answer to my question- how should a feminist dress? - is that (I think!) for clothing to be an actual feminist choice it has to be chosen without any thought for men at all.

Only that is not possible.
We are surrounded by men's thoughts of what women should look like all the time.

There are many women who say they shave their legs and put makeup on their faces and wear high heels "for themselves". And I believe them, in a way - they saw lots and lots of images of women seen through the lens of male gaze, and now this is their own beauty ideal.

So, how should a feminist dress? In a practical, comfortable way. Any reasoning that contains "Because it looks good" is likely to be influenced by male gaze.

Sometimes, a feminist may feel a need to submit to patriarchal norms in order to avoid harrassment. In my case that means I don't bathe topless, because I don't want to be leered at by men.
But one should always stay aware of the lack of freedom in such a decision.
When one rationalizes submitting to the male gaze as "my choice", one becomes emotionally attached to it and may feel a need to defend it, even to the point of inventing allegedly rational reasons.
(Such as "shaving my body is more hygienic") which can even lead to trying to bully other women into making the same decision.

The thing about the Bedouin women not being allowed to drink to protect them is a classic example - assuming it' to protect them from stupid drunken men, why is the solution not to stop the men drinking? No drunk men = no problem, unless patriarchy.

Stateless so you can hopefully see how women sometimes need "special" treatment just to reduce a biological disadvantage? Maternity leave isn't something that fathers get.

Women are obviously physically different to men, but I refute the argument about "wiring".

I think the idea that women need men's protection from other men is treating women like property and infantalising them. In the worst case scenario you end up with families that won't let their daughters go outside unless accompanied by a suitable male.

And the onus is always on the women to follow the men's guidelines or she is essentially culpable for rape.

It depends. I think that you can be a feminist and believe that men and women are different. The problem, as I see it, is that women are not treated fairly and their differing physiological needs are used as reasons for this.

That said, I don't believe there is any such thing as ladybrain.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=bedouin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwis_ILWqtbUAhUDuRoKHTd7CaQQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=638#tbm=isch&q=bedouin+face+mask

They seem to cover hair too.

I picture the classic veil with the eyes showing... which I interestingly associate with the exoticised concubines of sultans...

I need to look up how you cover your face but not your hair? Like tying something around it? I'm picturing a balaclava with a hole around the scalp for some reason !

So you might treat men and women differently to mitigate some of the inequalities women face because of biology in order to create equality I'd say this is how I see it Albadross I definitely don't think one should have better treatment than the other.

So you don't think women should have maternity leave?

I apologise for my comment about Islamophobia. It was silly to accuse anyone of that and not my place anyway. Many apologies and there have been so many interesting posts as always here.

Just to pick up on on this:

I believe that men and women are different and can be treated differently because of that then I'm no feminist!

Treated people equally doesn't always mean treating them the same, it's more about the outcomes. So you might treat men and women differently to mitigate some of the inequalities women face because of biology in order to create equality.

Hi Stateless, and thank you again for your contribution to my thread about Niqab and issues with communication - I think that actually ties in here for me because as a feminist (more radically leaning) I do believe that the issue of the male gaze should be for men to fix, not women, and that coverings as a requirement for any reason other than basic practicality for both sexes equally are coming at that problem from the wrong angle. That predisposes me to wonder why anyone would choose to cover when it could compromise both women's long-term chance of changing patriarchy and in doing so put barriers up for others who don't have a choice.

I shave my legs and wear makeup because it's easier, and we all want an easy life, but I hate that I should have to do that just so I don't have to fear constant judgement that men don't get. Yes it makes me feel some sense of empowerment when I go out looking what society deems as attractive but it's not necessarily a real power because it's dependent on something outside of myself. Even once you understand that it's still not a nice feeling to be told you're being influenced because it feels like we're not strong enough within ourselves to resist it. The word 'brainwashing' is really just a colloquialism for socialisation in this context, humans are so easily influenced and as much as we'd like to think our minds are our own it's just not realistic to believe that.

I find it odd when people polarise things so it becomes that if you believe men and women should be equal, that means you don't believe there are any differences between the sexes - we can be different without being lesser. People arguing against feminism are forever saying that (I'm not saying you are, but you asked pp about it).

I think "protection" is one of those lies that the patriarchy tells us that, on the surface, sounds like a compliment (women are precious) but in reality is a way of restricting us.

I remember watching an episode of Tribal Wives where the (Bedouin I think?) women weren't allowed to drink but the men were. When the western "wife" asked why the men said that it was to "protect" them.

Protect them from what though? Other drunken men?

Protection is often a euphemism for restriction.

Sorry - I didn't rtft at all! My phone made it look like there had only been a couple of replies apologies if my points are already made.

"Islam teaches that men should protect women"

I agree that women need to be protected from male oppression, violence and misogyny. But it is not 'men' that should be doing the 'protecting'. It should be the cultural norms, laws, customs, governance and criminal justice system that protect women and girls from male oppression, violence and misogyny.

Feminism means challenging all the cultural norms, customs, laws, governance and machinations of the criminal justice system (and anything else eg -eductation/media) that serve to reinforce the oppression of women by men, in order that all these things can, instead, effectively protect women.

If there are any aspects of Islam that serve to oppress women, then a Muslim Feminist will be critical of those aspects of Islam - that shouldn't make her less of a feminist or less of a Muslim. However, in my opinion, I am skeptical of any woman's 'choices' made within patriarchy are entirely 'free'. Being, as a woman, free to choose to conform to something dictated by patriarchy, whether that is shaving your legs or wearing a hijab is an illusion.

Additionally 'protect' is a dangerous word. Too often it gives the 'protector' an egoistic self-aggrandising fantasy of their own role which diminishes the status of the 'protected' in their mind - and can quicly become a sense of entitlement to control and dominate.

Feminism is about equality.

Within islam, women have to cover their hair to avoid the male gaze but men don't. Therefore, that is sexist: you are obliged to take an action because of your sex.

Patriarchal religions are always highly conservative in terms of gender roles. It's always the women covering their bodies, being the object of lust and men the lusters.

There is no reconciling it with feminism.

CaptainWarbeck

Very good point. A Muslim woman might cover up to avoid the male gaze, a Western woman might do the opposite to attract it. Or, she might vary her clothing to avoid it.

Either way, it's all done with men in mind.

So I suppose the answer is no, it's not feminist, but yes it's a feminist issue.

And most women, feminist or otherwise, do it to some degree.

Very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, OP.

My thoughts on the hijab are that if no muslim woman wore one voluntarily, it would be harder to ignore those countries that force women to wear them - harder for them to justify themselves.

Secondarily, in countries with many religions, we've already seen that when women in a cultural group are expected to cover, and do cover, that the women in other cultural groups (or their own group) who don't are seen as fair game - so in a way, whilst covering is an individual choice, it does have an impact on other women.

When it comes to marriage, I bet if women refused to marry men until there was no forced marriage then that would be one hell of a protest. The trouble is that marriage provides women with legal protections they don't get otherwise, so it would be an extremely risky protest to make.

So not do

I have noticed more young girls wearing the hijab than when I was at school. No young Muslim girl in my areal wore it in the 80s. Stateless do you think that the fact more are wearing it is a gesture of defiance in a way? Do, wanting to be identified instantly as Muslim, when Islam is becoming do contentious in the general perception. OR do you think it's a reaction to an increased conservatism in the faith? ( or something else?)