Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

Then why keep trying to say that there are rapes which aren't about power? I think we're speaking at cross purposes here.

No one is ignoring the role of power, here.

Yes my first rape by a virtual stranger was pretty much the same scenario as rockshandy. My second rape (and I only started to perceive it as a rape a few years ago) by my abusive partner, was more sadistic in nature.

I'm arguing what I'm arguing because I agree with rockshandy that ignoring the power aspect is a dangerous road to go down. I am not ignorant about rape.

I was raped by a man who had no intention of considering it rape.

I have no issue with acknowledging that his initial motivation was "just sex" but the second I said no and he used his body weight to keep me there, pinned to the bed, he was making a choice to use power over me.

And in the decade that followed where I had problems with accepting that I wasn't to blame were exacerbated by his attitude towards the whole thing. Which in itself was another abuse of power.

So please don't try to dismiss other posters on this thread before you have the full story of what they have been through. Anyone can debate this, anyone. It's not just for those who have been raped.

And as someone who has experienced rape from both, I think it's dangerous to cast all rapists as sadists doing it purely to get off on the power.
Because it makes it possible for men who were motivated by sexual desire and a lack of respect to exclude themselves from the class of 'rapist', because they didn't do it because of power at all.
And it makes it possible for victims to believe that it wasn't rape, because it had nothing to do with power.
I'm bowing out now, though. It's too personally upsetting to me to see people arguing "rape is always about power," when perhaps they have never experienced how that framing of rape can be very confusing and damaging to the victim.

No matter what the motivation was, the man still made the choice to exert power over a woman. At that point it became about power and the initial motivation is no longer relevant.

Agree. And that power is fuelled by a sense of entitlement. The woman's views, feelings and autonomy is irrelevant to his sense of entitlement.

I think that the stated motivations of a rapist are pretty irrelevant tbh. Does it really matter that he didn't intend to exert power and only wanted the sexual gratification? If he really needed the gratification then he should have had a wank.

So while I understand the point that is trying to be made about motivation, I think that it is a dangerous road to go down. No matter what the motivation was, the man still made the choice to exert power over a woman. At that point it became about power and the initial motivation is no longer relevant.

Are you addressing your comment to me, DJ? If so, I never said it wasn't still rape, etc. In fact, the sex-motivated sort can be more damaging psychologically in the long term.

"I think again this is a semantic point."
Possibly, Venus. For myself, I felt Cheese is trying to highlight the way rape is often claimed to be about "power not sex," and how that phrasing can be an issue. Which I can agree with, because while I agree with you that power is intrinsic to being able to commit the act, rape is not always "about" power. It's often simply about sex (via power.)

We live in a society where being able to sleep with a woman confers power and status to men. Therefore sex is an achievement to them and an exercise of power.

"Rape is power" is not just about sadists, it's about the difference in status between the raped and the rapist.

I think again this is a semantic point. What you are categorising as "about power" I would see as sadism. I am quite aware that some rapes are more about sexual gratification at another's expense and some are more about sadism. I see rape as fundamentally an act of power. It is intrinsic.

He 'has sex', she is raped. Its still rape. The man claiming his feelings are hurt when its labelled rape (because he didnt punch her) is adding insult to injury.

If men dont understand power and privilege, it makes it more important to teach men about consent, not less. They arent animals, they can control themselves, and they need to know what coercion is and not to do it.

I've been raped by men who never recognised it as rape, and never saw it as an exercise of their power.
They used their power to get sex, but the power was a means to an end, and completely irrelevant.
They wanted sex with a woman, and they would do whatever it took to get it. It was the sex that was the goal, the focus, and the relevant factor. Not the power it took to access the sex.
I've also been raped by men who got off on the power, and used the sex as a way to get off on having power over, controlling, hurting, and degrading women.
The two feel very different to me. But perhaps that's just my experiences.

I agree that male entitlement is a cultural problem. That doesn't mean that it isn't a display of power to act on it.

And it doesn't help victims to recast all rape as purely about power, because then when it isn't about power, victims feel like it isn't really rape.

That's because rape myths are prevalent in society. Not because rape isn't about power. I am also a rape survivor btw and I feel as strongly about my beliefs about this as you do about yours.

I know exactly what you mean, Cheese, and I think it's an important difference to highlight.
Both motivations are equally harmful, but the power-motivated sort are (imo,) the serial abusers/rapists who will never stop. The sex-motivated sort of rapists are the ones who can be prevented from ever offending, via the teaching of consent, respecting women's autonomy, etc to young men before they get that entitled attitude .
And the sex-motivated ones are often defended by their victims, or otherwise fly under the radar and go unaccused, because they don't fit the script of "rape is about power, not sex."

The comparison is ridiculous because you can't rape a person quietly from behind without their noticing.

I have never said that rape is never about sexual desire and that is not what I believe. But it is always about power.

If someone has the sexual desire that they can only find sexual satisfaction through strangling women to death, is that just about sex? They wouldn't do it if they could avoid it. It's very sad but they need sex, right? Nothing personal.

I've been replying (as others have) without suggesting you're being obtuse CheeseBubbles, you're making interesting points but I don't fully agree.

I think all rape is linked to power and that is a motivation (to different degrees) but Scrumplestiltskin's post has also made me think about it. I don't want to articulate it badly but I feel that there is always some element of power in rape, not only in the ability to commit it but in the carrying out of such an abhorrent act.

I feel like people are missing the the difference between the method, vs the motivation.
In both cases, power is what makes it possible to rape.
But in some cases the rapist needs to exercise power over another human being in order to get off sexually on the power, and in other cases the rapist uses the power in order to get the sexual satisfaction that they want.
Again, I think that claiming that all rape is about power and not sexual desire is like saying all child abusers are pedophiles. As CheeseBubbles has said, it 'others' the perpetrators and makes people disbelieve that 'nice' and 'ordinary' men could do these terrible things. It's not helpful imo.
I've been raped by men who get off on the power itself, and men who just want sexual satisfaction at any cost, and there is a difference, imo. And it doesn't help victims to recast all rape as purely about power, because then when it isn't about power, victims feel like it isn't really rape.

Entitlement is power. Without power there wouldn't be the entitlement.

Husband sulks if he feels he isnt getting enough. Also a power play.

People need to learn to recognise their own emotions, and name them.
We all feel all the emotions at some point. They drive our behaviour. Ignoring them does not make them disappear. It doesnt teach us how to manage them or control our responses.

CheeseBubbles that's an interesting example as that 17 year old has been me recently a few times (although with men of different ages). The first example is definitely power and intimidation, a reminder of your worth and putting that little thought in your head that it's up to him how far he wanted to exert that power over you. The second I agree is objectification first and foremost although still the knowledge in the man's mind he has the power to judge and ogle a girl in that way. I think there is still power there though just in his mind rather than overtly showing you he has it.