Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

My point, Sylvia, is that some people commit crimes because they get off on hurting people. Others commit crimes because they want something, and are willing to hurt people to get that thing.

"But this is power. To believe other people should do things because it is what you want and then insist they do them is power."

And when the attitude goes both ways in a relationship, is it still power? No. It's just fucked up and wrong. Imo.

I have said that I personally was in actual fact harmed by the" rape is always about power, not sex," framing.

I'm sorry but that's emotional blackmail. It's you that is behaving like a transactivist. I am a rape survivor too and I will not stop describing rape as an act of power as I believe suggesting that there are rapes where power is not involved is HARMFUL.

"That is not how anyone else sees it. Saying "all rape is about power" does not mean that."

Right, so I'm the only person in the world who saw it that way, and was harmed because of that?

"Goodness. Rape is not sex because if it was, it wouldn't be rape...given it's without consent. So it becomes a different act. Someone who's being force fed isn't having a bite to eat."

Someone who's being force-fed is in fact eating, though. Against their will, yes, but they are still consuming food.

In the case of rape vs sex, it's often the same physical act, but with vastly different psychological consequences.

Scrumple, a person getting practical benefit from a murder gets that practical benefit in a separate time period/situation to the murder. It is a consequence of the murder, not part of the murder itself.

If someone gets sexual gratification during a rape, that is part of and during the rape. It isn't a consequence of the rape that they get at some later point.

'...as it's hardly any bother to her and makes me really happy, she should do it.'

But this is power. To believe other people should do things because it is what you want and then insist they do them is power.

"People shouldn't rape others regardless of the motivation."

No one has said otherwise.

"Rape is fundamentally an act of power over another person and this fact should never be left out of any programme to educate men and boys about sexual consent."

I never said that the role of power should be left out.

I have said that I personally was in actual fact harmed by the" rape is always about power, not sex," framing.

"You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

On the example you gave about a teenage girl and her boyfriend is quite vexing. My opinion is irrelevant, yours takes precedence over all."

I was talking about my own experiences there, so yes, my opinion should take precedence. I apologise if I was not clear about that.

I said it was, and why. You said it wasn't, but didn't say why. So I'm asking why. And you are repeatedly refusing to answer.

Goodness. Rape is not sex because if it was, it wouldn't be rape...given it's without consent. So it becomes a different act. Someone who's being force fed isn't having a bite to eat.

We shouldn't have to paint rapists as power-hungry, othered monsters to recognise that rape is an awful, devastating crime.

That is not how anyone else sees it. Saying "all rape is about power" does not mean that.

"How is this comparable to sex and rape? A rapist enjoys raping people. There isn't some benefit they get that is entirely separate from the act of raping, in the way that there is with murder."

In some cases, rapists get off on hurting the other person and welding power over them, via sex. That's the equivalent to a serial killer.
Others simply disregard the other person's feelings because they think they are entitled to sex for whatever reason, and thus use their power to have sexual intercourse (rape.)

"I don't understand this compartmentalisation, where someone's physical enjoyment of an act can be completely decoupled from the wellbeing of the other person. If someone enjoys sexual acts in such conditions, holding power has become so intertwined with their sexuality that sex is always about power for them, whether they are raping someone or not."

That's not at all the case. A man may think "well, it's only 2 minutes of thrusting and then I'm done and oh so happy, and as it's hardly any bother to her and makes me really happy, she should do it."
Nothing at all to do with finding power thrilling. And still just as much rape, and just as wrong.

Much on this thread seems to be more widely about abuse in intimate relationships - not just sexual, but emotional, psychological, financial.

The effort put into keeping the victim in a state of vulnerability takes a huge amount of planning, thought and effort. It's not just about feeling entitled, it's about being committed to putting in the effort to constantly undermine another person.

Also this line

You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

On the example you gave about a teenage girl and her boyfriend is quite vexing. My opinion is irrelevant, yours takes precedence over all.

Entitlement is absolutely about power.

I feel it's other people that are behaving like transactivists. I have personally made my view clear and that it is Scrumple's position that I consider the harmful one. Rape is fundamentally an act of power over another person and this fact should never be left out of any programme to educate men and boys about sexual consent.

You'd have to ask the rapists what their motivations are.
My guess is many of them are too dim to actually be able to articulate what they were thinking.

People shouldn't rape others regardless of the motivation.

"this demanding of me to explain why rape isn't sex is ridiculous."

I said it was, and why. You said it wasn't, but didn't say why. So I'm asking why. And you are repeatedly refusing to answer.

"Again, that is not the definition of entitled, is it?"

In that case, it was that he felt people in a relationship were entitled to sex when they felt in the mood, and the other person was obliged to go along with it. So it is entitled.

'forget with the benefit of feeding my victim.'

Children, not victim.

I'm starting to feel similarly Quentin (on the offensive side). I feel all other opinions and experiences are being dismissed and this demanding of me to explain why rape isn't sex is ridiculous.

'It's like the difference between a serial killer who gets off on killing, and a murderer who kills for a practical reason that benefits them.'

So in this scenario, say my children are going to starve to death, unless I murder someone. So I carry out the murder (hating every moment of having to do it, because how terrible for the victim) and attempt to forget with the benefit of feeding my victim. As compared to the serial killer who enjoys the murder itself.

How is this comparable to sex and rape? A rapist enjoys raping people. There isn't some benefit they get that is entirely separate from the act of raping, in the way that there is with murder.

I don't understand this compartmentalisation, where someone's physical enjoyment of an act can be completely decoupled from the wellbeing of the other person. If someone enjoys sexual acts in such conditions, holding power has become so intertwined with their sexuality that sex is always about power for them, whether they are raping someone or not.

"Right I'm out. Being compared to a trans activist in this context is either trolling or offensive and I can't be arsed with it today"

Repeating "rape is not sex" over and over, without providing any reason as to why rape is not "literally non-consenting sex" is exactly what transactivists do when they say "trans women are women".

Right I'm out. Being compared to a trans activist in this context is either trolling or offensive and I can't be arsed with it today

Scrumplestiltskin

But what if that is exactly the way the rapist sees it? And he would think it fair if you demanded sex from him when he wasn't in the mood?

Again, that is not the definition of entitled, is it? If he feels entitled enough to have sex with you whenever he likes, he's hardly going to become the opposite of that when you want sex he doesn't. I should imagine it's far more likely that he wants sex all the time and has gaslighted you into thinking you can demand it when he doesn't want it.

"I'm not sure why you're asking me what rape is and trying to link it to standard sexual intercourse."

Because you keep insisting that rape is not the act of sexual intercourse? And are unable to explain why it is not?

"I'm not at all sure you can get into his head enough to know."

And yet you claim you can?

"That's the power! Right there."

Which facilitates it.

I'm not at all sure you can get into his head enough to know. If power facilitates the satisfaction, then to me, it has to seem like a positive, for him.

Unless his need for sex is so overpowering that he is willing to have a very negative element to it, every time it does it.

Which, I don't think you can reconcile with him feeling 'entitled'.

If he feels entitled and thinks he can demand sex, I would be very surprised if he was willing to put up with feeling a little bit bad about himself, every time he did it!

You think. You think, but you don't know. That's just your opinion. And ime, that's not the case.

Well I know girls who've been in that situation, but alright.

I'm not sure why you're asking me what rape is and trying to link it to standard sexual intercourse.

"I know you're trying to make sense of what happened to you."

Not at all. I'm long past what happened to me, and the rapes which were about sex, not power, were by far the least damaging sexual assaults and rapes I've suffered in my youth.

"Demanding sex isn't the same as a row over who makes the bed."

But what if that is exactly the way the rapist sees it? And he would think it fair if you demanded sex from him when he wasn't in the mood?