Male feminism

Yep, it's bullshit like that last comment that means I'm hiding this thread now.

"balanced views" now there's a thing. A subjective thing.

One could argue that this forum offers the balanced view to patriarchal world and pretty much 90% of the t'interweb (which appears not to worry too much about balanced views but rather the views of Mediocre White Men).

No thanks. I know how these threads go and I'm not investing in another one.

So read the full thread. Its not very long.

You won't get balanced views in this topic, I'm afraid, OP.

I haven't RTFT but I'm pretty sure the majority will say things are not being blown out of proportion.

Well he has disappeared now. Maybe gone to bed.

Rufus.. when Derval first posted he was a bit... grumpy... about women.

However, I take your point, especially with OP's similar to this one. I'm always a bit wary now because I answer questions in good faith, the answers are ignored or a new layer of whataboutery is added and then it all gets a bit silly. I'd like to think that one day there will be a chap who comes along, says he's hear to learn and actually is... maybe this one?

Op when they are older will you be equally happy for your teenage sons and daughter to walk home at 9pm in winter when it's dark.?
If not why not?
What does your wife say about feminism,I assume you've asked her before a load of strangers,my daughter is 14 and boys the same age are already talking the girls down,sexually harassing them.This will happen to your daughter,your son's may treat girls this way especially if their dad doesn't get that it's an issue and 'boys will be boys'.

Well, if he was expecting a nest of vipers, he was probably disappointed. Everybody has been so easy on him.

Me neither Rufus maybe this will be the one? I'm an optimist. Still not sure what he meant about mumsnet not being how he expected though.

Has a male ever posted on the feminism board with a genuine desire to learn?

I have lurked for a while and don't seem to have spotted one yet

So your daughter is better at maths than your boys.
In spite of that, she will have to work much harder to be taken seriously when choosing a career, at college, at work.
Your boys will be assumed to be good at serious subjects, given good career advice, taken seriously at work, their opinions listened to - in spite of the fact that they may really be mediocre even. (Not saying they are).

Does that bother you?

She will be steered from algebra to unicorns and makeup her entire life. If she still manages to escape these traps, the kitchen sink is always waiting for her.
She might even choose it - but will it really be a choice or more of a hobsons choice? The parameters of her options will have been set by society not by her. Would it really be a free choice? Today if she dreams about her future does it include the kitchen sink and cleaning her partners dirty washing? If not, why on earth would she choose it later of her own free will? There must be something else at play, no?

I wonder what that is?

Apologies. I meant I assume you didn't read the link as it explains about women dying unnecesarily, and that hardly seems trivial.

Possibly tea and cake. And you come back with your washing done.

That made me laugh out loud.

OP, I assume you mean the attached post when you talk about the car crash dummy post. I didn't link it to misogyny but sexism. I can only assume you didn't bother to read the link if you think that women dying unnecessarily because men are seen as the default humans is trivial. Either that, or you did read it and are remarkably callous.

Aw shucks, NoLove - and thanks!

I would suggest you research the statistics on rape, abuse and domestic violence. This is primarily why I am a feminist, I have seen violence towards women my whole life and am helping a friend in a dv situation right now. Your Dd is at risk of this. Check out the women's aid website.

Absolutely. VAWG is what made me a feminist and first made me aware of feminism; I've discovered a lot more since and am learning a huge amount daily, not least from here.

I would suggest you research the statistics on rape, abuse and domestic violence. This is primarily why I am a feminist, I have seen violence towards women my whole life and am helping a friend in a dv situation right now. Your Dd is at risk of this. Check out the women's aid website.

Also read The Whole Woman by Germaine Greer. She is still my favourite feminist theorist because she is very clear and keeps it simple. Though I don't agree with everything she says.

There was a thread on mumsnet a while back that discussed catcalling of little girls, 11 and 12, so many women posted that this had happened to them or their daughters. But a handful of people just refused to accept that this exists. Very eye opening thread. Your Dd will encounter this at some point in her teens if she hasn't already.

I sometimes get fed up with feminists arguing it seems for the sake of arguing for instance the everyday feminism site, can't stand that website, and things like Amber Roses slut walk I just can't get behind, so I see your point. But yes feminists often disagree, we are not the Borg.

I came to mumsnet because of the feminism board and posts about the transgender issue. It really opened my eyes and this is one of the few places where this issue can be debated honestly.

Perhaps have a look on YouTube and check out the 'Women decide for yourselves' video about trans. Also babyrad fem and Madeline burns ( hope I got her name right) this is another issue that will affect your children.

My dad is also described by the first two lines of the OP's post. Thankfully he (and my brothers) have listened a great deal to things I've told them on feminism and the misogyny which is still inherent in society.

maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

I'll ignore the use of "agenda" to say there are so many for all women and girls but I'd have not been regularly subject to street harassment since the age of 14 for one.

There are also some fantastic and informative posts on this thread. So many intelligent and inspiring women. Hedgehog best wishes with your equal pay claim and you are fantastic

I won't attempt to address the bigger issues in your post, but it's worth hanging around and reading this board quietly for a while with an open mind.

On a more specific point, however, fundraising for breast cancer research/awareness is more beneficial to men than the equivalent for testicular cancer - according to Cancer Research UK, breast cancer kills more men than testicular cancer (73 vs 60 in 2014).

It also killed 11,360 women. It is an odd position to take - to object to more effort being made to raise awareness of a disease that kills thousands of people over one that kills dozens on the basis that the first is seen as a "woman's" disease and that the second is exclusive to men.

You also don't mention how patriarchy might impact my sons, which is kinda what I mean about feminism not seeming to me to be about equality.

Really??? Do you really need someone to explain to you how a system which favours males over females might impact males? How about starting with the fact that (since statistically boys do less well than girls in school exams yet go on to earn more than their female peers) they are likely to find it easier to get better pay than if they were female. Or how about the fact that (again, statistically- we all know NAMALT) if they have a female partner they are likely to do much less of the domestic work. Or that despite all the gender inequality lots of people will tell them that their success compared to their female peers is definitely because they are just better and more committed. Or the fact that they will probably get through their teenage years without having some old woman leering at them and making suggestive comments then getting aggressive when they don't play along.

@thymelord

Yes, I do wonder* if this male Seeker After Truth will be the sort who has a blinding flash of light wherein he realizes that the oppression of women is vastly more widespread and subtle than he had noticed, and feminism's responses vastly more complex and challenging than he knew. And see that his understanding is really shallow and inadequate, so will run straight off to the library to do some self-led education on feminist history before returning to intelligently engage with the issues.

Or if he will be the sort that offers increasingly limp and generalized "arguments" in support of the "questions" he dragged in from meninismforbeginners.com before skulking back off there to complain about how he tried to have a reasonable discussion with some feminists but they were all too rude and reactionary to bother with.

*Except I don't wonder, as the first sort apparently doesn't exist.

I must be getting very cynical. I can see where these wide eyed 'teach-me-about-feminism' men are going from about 2 lines into their OP.

I'd love to know what he thought MN should be like? Lots of mummies chatting about our lazy hubbies who won't pick their pants up, maybe?!

I've spent the day going round in circles with an incompetent man who has a huge sense of entitlement and thinks that several pieces of work should be put in jeopardy and half a dozen engineers be hugely inconvenienced because he only wants to do his piece of work at a certain time (that btw is inconvenient for the business). So I may be less than accommodating to other men demonstrating an equal lack of awareness.

End. Of. Rant.

But yeah

Okay, I'm home from a 12 hour day at a meeting to which I was invited because I'm world-class in my field, which is, incidentally hard maths end of science. I'm also one of a group of female workers at my workplace (world class reputation) whose equal pay claims are going through the courts right now because although our management's own internal audit revealed a systematic pay gap - not between roles, but within single roles - of up to 10%, they claimed they didn't have the money to fix it. I also managed to get promoted to my present senior role while my DS was a toddler (and I am a single parent to boot, so carry the whole responsibility for my son's care).

Because I am (a) knackered and (b) underpaid, I'm afraid my retort will be rather grumpier and more short-tempered than normal.

You wrote: Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")

To which I reply "bollocks". In fact, "big, hairy, male (who doesn't know what he's talking about) bollocks".

This isn't what I thought Mumsnet was like.

Warn your friends that if they need details on feminism they should go somewhere else.