Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male feminism

163 replies

HardToFindAUsername · 22/06/2017 18:28

Hi. I'm a bloke (sorry) with 2 sons and a daughter.
I want the best for each of them, obviously.

I've got into an internet bubble where I'm seeing a lot of anti-"rabid"-feminist messages, and I'd like to check whether it's un-balancing my views. I've had a read of a few threads on here and I'm actually worried that my views may perhaps be correct.

Before you read on can I stress that this is a genuine attempt to understand. My current views probably aren't yours, but aren't meant to offend.

As things stand this is what I perceive as feminism:

  1. There's a lot of "this [obscure example of something being male] is yet more misogyny". Just because a crash test dummy is male doesn't demonstrate a hatred of women.
  2. There's lop-sided comparisons of "the advantages of being male" to the "disadvantages of being female". Pay gap is a good one, I see this as mostly a "personal career preference" issue (and perhaps a "parent penalty")
  3. There's loads of generalised criticism, lots of which isn't answerable in the same sound-bite way the criticism is voiced. It comes across to me as wanting to complain, not wanting to improve things.
  4. There's no single version of feminism, so some or all of the above may not apply to any individual.

I'm fully expecting some abuse here, which I can take fine, but I am genuinely trying to work out if I should be (more of) a feminist for my daughter's sake, or if the "issues" are being blown out of proportion.

I dont really know what might persuade me (if you even care to do so, I'm not assuming you do/should) - maybe there's an actual situation where (if some part of feminist agenda was in effect at the time) you can describe how your life would be different?

This is a genuine attempt to understand, and whilst I may be challenging I promise to listen and try to see any points you put forward.

Fire away

OP posts:
Datun · 23/06/2017 09:47

I suspect the OP has mentally disengaged.

"I tried, I really did. I asked the feminists to explain 100 years of feminism to me, but you know what, they got grumpy".

So now he can go off fully complacent that he's done his bit. Because no one was willing to write him a 15 page essay, making it palatable and without using the word men or patriarchy (you know, in case he stopped listening).

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 09:47

Indeed Datun.

I'd also be pretty irked if my dad had come out with most of that even before I started talking to him about feminism, and horrified if he was seeking out "anti feminist messages" online.

Datun · 23/06/2017 09:42

Yeah NoLoveofMine. Point 3 is unintentionally ironic, which underlines all the rest.

Instead of complaining that you are oppressed and have no voice, why don't you change it...

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 09:36

The points have all been rebutted. Point 3 is ironic as it's actually describing that very "point" (and to some extent all of them) itself.

Datun · 23/06/2017 09:33

DadofGingers87

We will occasionally have discussions not just here, but in general on mumsnet about shaving pubic hair, wearing make up, wearing high heels, being a stay at home mum, etc.

When you live under a patriarchy, none of these decisions is made in a vacuum. The discussions get very interesting. But people are generally not shamed or ostracised for their opinions.

Many feminists wear make up and are stay at home mums. Because we have a system within which we have to make it work.

Radical feminism wants to dismantle the system so no one feels obliged to wear make up and being a stay at home parent is something that would be considered a man's job, as much as a woman's.

Sometimes the very high idea seems so against the grain that people get heated.

If your wife's friends have ostracised her, instead of engaging in an exchange of ideas, then I suggest they are not very nice people.

Which isn't the fault of feminism.

SaS2014 · 23/06/2017 09:31

Slightly different stance to a lot of folk but I actually agree with what you said (points 1-4) in your original post. (And shock horror I'm a woman!)

CaretakerToNuns · 23/06/2017 09:30

*women

CaretakerToNuns · 23/06/2017 09:29

If you had any respect for woman you'd be looking all this up on the internet or at the library, NOT getting all of us to do your work for you while you sit on your backside.

I worry for your daughter, I really do.

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 09:26

Fantastic and informative post as always from Datun.

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 09:25

I'd be more worried about your daughter being harassed on the street, subject to male violence, misogyny, held back in the workplace, patronised, dismissed, judged constantly on appearance.

Having said that, if only there could be a "societal change" so people would "do only what feminists say" - then maybe men would stop killing women and girls.

Datun · 23/06/2017 09:20

Today 08:43 BertrandRussell

"I need to look out for my daughter and how to combat feminist extremism"

What on earth do you mean?

That's an answer I'd like to see!

OP, this is a feminist board, for people to talk about feminist issues. It's not an explanatory article, or a teaching resource.

The women who post on here are mostly very informed about feminism, the history of it and why we have it.

And it's a large topic. But the very first tenet that has to be accepted is that we do live under a patriarchy. Unfortunately, the very word patriarchy will induce an eye roll in some people. So you might find it easier to think of it as male chauvinism.

Women also understand that men do not comprehend what living under a patriarchy is like for girls and women. The objectification of women and girls and a sense that they are just not quite as good as men is what leads to the statistical, proven oppression of females.

When you consider that 117 million girl babies are aborted before they are born, purely on the basis that they are female, you might ask yourself why? And although that is not something that is part of the culture here, it should inform you nonetheless.

I don't know how old your daughter is, but if she engages in any kind of on line discourse with boys when she's a teenager, one of the very first things she will be asked is to 'send nudes'. And it will be constant. Did you know that studies are suggesting that a girl's first sexual experience is now anal sex? If you think but boys will be boys, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.

If you want to bring your children up with any kind of respect for humanity, let alone respect for the opposite sex. I would consider it an urgent duty on your behalf, to investigate feminism. With an open mind. And with your daughter in mind.

Do not dismiss it. You will not experience what women and girls experience. You will never have experienced it. You may well think you know, but you don't. You have to overcome that hurdle.

One of things that women here are often expected to do is to explain feminism to men, and then to justify it when they disagree. We know why you disagree. It doesn't happen to you! We know the questions, we know how the discussion pans out, it's very predictable. It happens all the time.

If you are serious and your opening post is in good faith just take a few hours (a few hours over the course of a few weeks surely is not too much of an investment) and browse the feminist boards for more general topics like sexism at work.

Cordelia Fine's book, Delusions of Gender explains easily and neatly why girls and boys get treated differently. And how women suffer for it.

jellyfrizz · 23/06/2017 09:20

Thank god those extremist feminist did not succeed in their plot to force your wife to work rather than stay home and look after the kids. Can you imagine the damage?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/06/2017 09:19

Hmm, well if this actually happened to your wife that would of course be wrong... but, seriously - having a go at your wife for wearing makeup? I'm having a bit of difficulty believing that that account might not be, how shall I put it, a tad exaggerated.

And if it did happen, does that merit the term "extremism"? Grooming into extremism (dispossessed young Asian men groomed into perverted forms of Islam, angry white men groomed into committing racist atrocities) tends to end in suicide bombing, knifing people, spraying crowds with bullets from a semi-automatic, not suggesting that someone might be hypocritical for wearing makeup.

Seriously, I don't think you need "fear for your daughter." I cannot think of a single terrorist atrocity perpetrated by a feminist, radical or otherwise. Even the SCUM Manifesto was a satire (along the lines of Swift's Modest Proposal).

JillyBoel · 23/06/2017 09:14

Dadofgingers, I think the problem there isn't that your wife's friends are "extreme feminists". It's that they're not very nice people. Confused

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 09:14

Me being on the feminist boards is helping my dad learn more about feminism though as I fill him in on more Bertrand Grin

BertrandRussell · 23/06/2017 09:13

Just checking- do women shout at you when you hold doors open for them?

DadofGingers87 · 23/06/2017 09:04

Have you never come across it Bertrand Russell
I'll give you an example
My wife is shunned by her feminist friends as she doesn't want to conform to their way of living as a women. When we discussed having a family my wife wanted to be a stay at home parent. Her feminist friends said she was a disgrace to feminists. She was called a hypocrite for wearing make up when she went out to special meetings or events with them even though she normally doesn't.
Albeit this is rare but I have witnessed it first hand and it worries me that my daughter could be forced by a societal change to do only what feminists say which is just as bad as not having a choice due to the patriarchal system we currently have

BertrandRussell · 23/06/2017 08:43

"I need to look out for my daughter and how to combat feminist extremism"

What on earth do you mean?

DJBaggySmalls · 23/06/2017 08:40

So far, no men are on the feminist boards so their daughters can learn about feminism.

DadofGingers87 · 23/06/2017 08:34

I tend to lurk on feminist chat to learn ways I need to look out for my daughter and how to combat feminist extremism whilst protecting her from the male centric society. But most men seem to have had a brain bypass on this subject

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 23/06/2017 07:45

Actually yes

There have been posters like derval, i think he has been around longer than me so i missed him

Apologies to derval and other posters if i have missed them

But my post definitely applies to the latest batch of apparently 'eager to learn' men

It just seems that i read the opening post and usually its fine and then by page 2....at the latest! Its all gone wrong

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 06:58

Why not the hide the topic whataboutthis if you've got nothing intelligent to add?

insensitiveprick · 23/06/2017 05:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TitaniasCloset · 23/06/2017 01:06

See even when its going well and fairly peaceful someone must say something. Ah well.

scallopsrgreat · 23/06/2017 00:54

Well you didn't have to post on here. And you made a deliberately goody comment.