Male feminism

absolutely agree Datun
So hard to explain what feminism is 'about' when it's 'about' pretty much everything in the social and political world.
Maybe if OP thinks about his daughter growing up (don't know if her's mentioned her age) and the reflex way we restrict/worry about girls as they become more independent, more so than boys, he will see that we fear gilrs are more likely than boys to be victims of violence , especially of sexual violence. And that we worry if they go out 'dressed like that'. And that what is perceived as attractive/acceptable in women tends to be impractical, more decorative, more juvenile....think of shoes and ask yourself WHY men's shoes are never ones that it's impossible to walk/run in, yet women's often are. Why, why should that be?

"Wark" not Work. Tsk ! - blinking autocorrect

Or comment on women's appearances if they happen to be reading the news or otherwise presenting a TV show.

Excellant point. My girlfriend often comments on what Kirsty Work is wearing when she presents Newsnight. I generally just shrug my shoulders - no complaints yet.

DadofGingers87

I agree with DJs post. Delusions of Gender might also help you understand how insidious society is in treating girls and boys completely differently. How people, men and women, do it without even realising.

How they insist they treat children equally, and are then shocked when they are filmed, and discover a bias they didn't know existed.

Feminists suspect this before they are feminists. Then they read what other feminists have written and it suddenly illuminates their experience like some almighty, celestial lightbulb. And it doesn't generally happen to males.

It's only when you question something that you have always considered 'just the way things are', that dots get connected so quickly, so bloody consistently and with such awful and blinding predictability, you are left gasping at how you just didn't see it.

And once the goggles are off, they are off forever.

Absolutely Collidascope. Equality at home is hugely important, it's vital for us to see parents sharing housework. Women continually end up doing the bulk of the housework, this is learnt cultural behaviour in my opinion from what the majority see at home. It's so easy to fall into and still so pernicious.

It's vital for fathers of daughters to build their self-esteem as well, ensure they know they can aspire to anything, that they're not held back or expected to do anything due to their sex. If daughters see this attitude from their fathers it helps enforce this is what should be expected from boys and any potential male partners in future, as well.

I think one of the best thing men can do for their daughters is treat their wives well. Share the housework and the mental load. Don't get aggressive because if you do your daughter might well believe that's all she deserves later too. Also dont, as my dad did, suggest that young girls are to blame for being slags when a male celebrity is found guilty of a string of sexual assaults on little girls. Or comment on women's appearances if they happen to be reading the news or otherwise presenting a TV show.

DadofGingers87
I think theres a lot you can do for your kids. Keep telling them they are worthwhile, competent people. That you value them and other people should too. and that they shouldn't settle for second best. That you are there for them, so support them and back them up. Dont assume they know it, say it to their faces.
Society has a tendency to treat adult women like children, and then penalise them for behaving that way. The problem with that model is that children dont make good parents. And that we age. You cant be a teenager when you are late middle aged, so basing your self worth on youthfulness is damaging.

user1498213655

Much as it goes against the grain for me to congratulate someone for doing something which I think is his profound duty, nonetheless, it's encouraging that you seem to be posting in reasonably good faith.

However, a thread asking for information from feminists is not really going to work. Because another basic tenet of feminism is that women are frequently asked to do the emotional labour for men.

When that labour is actually based upon the reason for feminism in the first place, you can see the problem...and the irony.

However, in the interests of spreading the word, I had a quick look at this site, and it might be useful to you.

malefeminists.com/

Why I love mums net even

Damn! late to the thread again. This is my favourite resource for this kind of poster

Well OP, there are two very basic rules for men on here re: feminism.

1. Do not ask questions about feminism.
2. Do not try to explain anything about feminism.

Just listening is probably a very sensible approach.

I read the post Quentin and I fully agree feminism is allowing women a choice. I think that the media image of feminism needs changing. I want my child to bebfree of oppression not judged on sex and I feel Women in general are the better group. If not for women nothing would be achieved but some women (I know they are rare) want everything to be in there favour. I think that the pay gap shouldn't exsist I don't think women should be judged on appearance or forced to fit a stereotype. I want to learn how I can make this happen for my daughter what as a man I can do to make life better for all. I just feel overwhelmed by it. How can I help. When as a man I raise an issue on this I feel ignored by my male peers that's why u love mums net.

Perhaps this definition is more to the anti feminists liking;
“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”

Pat Robertson, 1992, opposing an equal rights amendment.

Hi. I'm the OP.
Deleted my account last night as this seemed to be futile. Reconsidered this morning.

I'm not disengaged, but I'm shutting the F up, and just listening to what everyone has to say.

Oh I dunno Quentin. I think Xenia would disagree with you. But I'd say ive only heard it a couple of times in decades of doing all the feminism.

dadofgingers we actually had a big old debate about feminism/SAHM a while back. Maybe you would like to read it.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2925437-I-am-a-feminist-and-a-sahm
I have never seen MN feminists (or real life feminists) suggest you can't be a feminist and a SAHM. I think it's an "alternative fact" designed to stop women engaging with feminism.

Slightly different stance to a lot of folk but I actually agree with what you said (points 1-4) in your original post. (And shock horror I'm a woman!)

Why the shock that you're a woman

Women are people. People sometimes get things wrong. [shrugs]

erit the term "extremism"? Grooming into extremism (dispossessed young Asian men groomed into perverted forms of Islam, angry white men groomed into committing racist atrocities) tends to end in suicide bombing, knifing people, spraying crowds with bullets from a semi-automatic, not suggesting that someone might be hypocritical for wearing makeup.

Shhh! No logic here please.

Hey Dad exactly how do you plan on combating this feminist extremism? Grappling women to the floor and shaving their legs? Maybe applying a light blusher on women who've fallen asleep in the tube?
Someone how I don't believe that any feminist woman who goes to feminist meetings and hangs out with scary radical feminists would be married to a man 'combating feminism '

Thanks Datun! My friends and I do our best - some boys just revel in their misogyny but the specific boys I'm friends with are great (not that they should be praised for not being misogynists but they are genuinely interested in and want to be supportive of feminism). I'm also managing with my brothers who are both younger - the elder of the two now tells me of pulling his friends up on sexism.

Indeed. It's normalised so early now, the misogyny and sexual comments online are constant, I don't recall being at a large scale party where I've not heard sexual harassment, objectification and sexualised references to girls, it's quite worrying. The problem with it being so plainly there is it's also so commonplace as to be often accepted as natural by young people generally, if that makes sense.

NoLoveofMine

I wonder if one of the things that pull teenage boys up short, is the sexual harassment and objectification of girls that they can so plainly see.

NoLoveofMine

Given that you are a teenager, it's very heartening to know that you are managing to spread the word from the bottom up, so to speak.

Indeed Hedgehog. I think men and boys interested in feminism or wanting to learn should read, discover more and listen to the experiences of women and girls. That's what the boys I know who are genuinely interested and now excellent supporters of feminism did. Listened as we spoke to them about feminist issues, learnt about street harassment etc, didn't try to dismiss experiences or invalidate them and tried/try to understand as best they can the points we make to them.

I missed that one M0stly.

Many times I have fervently wished that a post or a thread is not deleted because, the point the opening poster is trying to rebut, is just constantly being reinforced by their comments.

Well, there was a thread first thing this morning (which got zapped in no time) which someone summarised as:

OP: Please explain feminism to me so it sounds nice, not like that scary stuff I keep hearing about at second hand from the Daily Mail

MN: Nope, not biting. We've been trolled before

OP: No really, I'm genuine. Pleeaaase explain so I can go and tell people feminists aren't nasty. That's my only motivation. Honestly not trolling...

MN: Still not biting.

OP: You're all a bunch of man-hating ugly bitches...

This thread strikes me as a slightly more sophisticated version of the same thing, with an OP who has just enough intelligence to realise that sophisticated trolling involves sitting on your hands and not resorting to the "you're all a bunch of man-hating ugly bitches" line, and that in fact wounded "but you're not giving me a chance", "aren't you engaging in reverse sexism", "but men suffer too" lines keep the thread going much longer.

Although there have been some excellent posts on the thread as always so I at least have gained knowledge!