Why do some feminists not want sons?

You lot are utterly deluded. Boys my age totally look down on girls, men do, women do, your sons do. You really have no idea.

@NoLove, you are 17 and talking about teenage boys, who are dickheads and will say anything controversial/misogynistic to get a laugh from their mates.

They grow up and stop believing that crap, usually.

When I was at school, I was exasperated because all the boys pretty much were from a misogynist 50s time machine. Fast forward to uni graduation and behold, a bunch of sensible guys! (mostly)

Also, I think part of the reason people want girls is because they're more familiar (as we are women), and you go through a lot of the same problems and can offer support. Also, you can do "girly" stuff together like spa days and coffee (yes you can do this with guys but I've never seen a bloke out on a spa day with his mum, nor would I go on a spa day with my dad).

I think both of those are definitely major factors. I can see why it'd feel more attractive to be seen as easy going, not "up tight", laughing along with misogyny and not challenging boys/the misogyny in society generally than to seem to be the one always objecting to something. Thankfully though plenty of girls - and indeed boys like your son - are doing so!

It is dispiriting indeed! They all watch the same circle of YouTube videos where "feminist" is a dirty word, a shorthand for all that has gone wrong with society. So I guess she has picked it up there.

Besides there is probably the "cool girl" element. It feels so much nicer to be swimming along with the current than against it.

He sounds great Lessthanaballpark and it can be difficult for teenage boys to be feminists and supportive of it so it's fantastic he is and will no doubt go on to do so! It also sounds like he's approaching it in a good way, becoming enraged about certain issues and also mocking nonsense like his classmate's comment (although it's dispiriting "feminist" is seen by the girl in question as an insult, as risible as it is she ascribed that label to the individual in question).

NoLove he's 16. There is the problem, like Vestal said, that they hear all kinds of crap at school. Luckily he can see it for what it is, talk about it then we laugh at how ridiculous people are!

My favourite example of this is when he came home from school recently, fuming because his class had watched a video of Katie Hopkins and afterwards the girl next to him had loudly pronounced that KH was such an awful person that she was "probably a feminist" . Because that of course is the insult du jour!

DS was all like "Does she even know what feminism is?!"

It did make me laugh though. If only KH knew that she was being held up as an example of a despicable human being in school classrooms!

the social world of teenage girls have decreased somewhat

I think this is overstated if you mean relationships with other girls. I go to a girls' school and there are wonderful friendship groups; generally all are supportive to one another and any fall outs are nothing which wouldn't happen in any school no matter of sex (there have actually been barely any in my year group anyway). The social world in terms of growing up in a society so permeated with misogyny, dealing with sexism both in person and on social media, though, I'd agree with as it's infuriating.

Congratulations on your soon to be new arrival!

If your teenage son starts spouting sexist shit he learnt at school, you can argue and argue and argue, to try and make him see reason, but it seems a very tiring thing to do.

Very much so. I've long since given up on some boys I've known so it must be extremely frustrating for their mothers, if they are opposed to such views and aware of what they're like, that is. It's also something I worry about in the future with my brothers (I've already challenged a couple of things) though hopefully the influence of my mother will offset that.

Failing that it would be poetic justice if they are landed with a son who likes fashion, glitter and unicorns or a daughter who becomes a prop forward at rugby.

I would prefer a daughter, so that we can smash patriarchy together. Her being good at rugby would not interfere with that at all.
(needless to say, I would be delighted if I had a son who offended patriarchy by liking fashion, glitter and unicorns. Though his father would have to go clothes shopping with him, in that case)

Sometimes it seems impossible to raise the enlightened people one would wish for, my Ds is fairly unreconstructed at 8, and his 5 year old sister is a vision in pink tulle. I think the only way to get past their inner stereotypes would be Clockwork Orange style

That's what I worry about with regard to having sons. You are never the only influence in your child's life (well, not if you adhere to normal-people ethics, anyway), more likely than not you won't even be able to homeschool.

If your teenage son starts spouting sexist shit he learnt at school, you can argue and argue and argue, to try and make him see reason, but it seems a very tiring thing to do.

I'm a feminist but before having DC I only ever wanted boys. This was entirely because of my relationships with other girls as a child/teen. I never understood social norms & had zero faith in my ability to raise a daughter who could navigate the realities of growing up female in our society.

I currently have 2 boys one who loves anything pink & am expecting DC3. I'd quite like this one to be a girl so I'd get to experience the difference in expectations from others. Also partly so I could dress her in her brothers' hand-me-downs & give looks to anyone who suggested pink dresses... I wouldn't stop her wearing them if she wanted to though DS has cute pink clothes. One of my DSs has ASD & I think we're doing alright raising him to be confident in who he is as an individual so my concerns about navigating the social world of teenage girls have decreased somewhat. I think a lot of my difficulties could've been resolved if I'd had an adult paying attention & helping me work through issues - my DC will all have that.

Thank you very much for the lovely comment Lessthanaballpark! Your son sounds fantastic. How old is he? I think it is important for feminists who want children to cherish having either, as whilst I see the power of girls and women to fight misogyny as incredible as has always been the case it's also important to have supportive boys too. I certainly know a couple of boys who tell me they have strong, feminist mothers.

In terms of being challenging my parents would assure you I do my fair share of terrorising them

I'm a feminist and I specifically wanted a son because I grew up in an all female household.
He's a wonderful son too, he's 35 now and how I wish I could have found a husband like him.
It shows men are decent and wonderful if they are brought up properly and taught to respect other people.
There will always be the uber feminist who prefers daughters but in my mind that's the easy way out. We have a duty to ensure our sons are decent human beings and that takes work.

Just to note, I very much kept the disappointment to myself. It did not seem acceptable to express a preference for either, just gratitude for a healthy baby. Maybe that was just me though.

Sometimes it seems impossible to raise the enlightened people one would wish for, my Ds is fairly unreconstructed at 8, and his 5 year old sister is a vision in pink tulle. I think the only way to get past their inner stereotypes would be Clockwork Orange style
Fwiw, I wanted a girl first and got a boy, wanted a brother for him and got a girl, so gender disappointment at both scans. It didn't last more than.few days

Sorry, my point being that feminists can achieve a lot by having sons. I've never seen any here say they'd rather have daughters.

NoLove I've seen loads of your posts and I've always thought it would be ace to have a daughter just like you.

But I have a son and whilst it may be challenging in terms of sitting on a pee-covered seat and putting up with hideous testosteroney mood swings it does fit in with my plan of changing the world.

I've raised him to be a feminist and he is quite ardent. Every now and again he'll burst into my room with a "oh my god, did you know that there are x million girls missing in China?!" or some such thing.

I try to sound shocked but his outrage does make me hopeful.

Most women I know long for a daughter and are disappointed if they don't have one. I think it's lovely that we value girls when they aren't wanted or valued in many other cultures.

Back in the day when the lesbian feminists I used to know were thinking about having kids it was an issue and especially when rumours went around that self insemination was more likely to produce males. As with Jeffries those who couldn't stomach the idea of producing another male probably decided to not try to have kids. It was just the way things were when we had to do it all ourselves anyway.

No idea if it's actually true, but her feminist student admirers said she was quite open about it.

When i was at uni appatently Sheila Jeffries would tell first years in her lectures she didn't have children in case she had a boy.

I concede it's probably totally unfair of me, but I can't help thinking that those parents who have a really strong preference for one sex over the other (usually because they think in stereotypes) probably shouldn't have children.

Failing that it would be poetic justice if they are landed with a son who likes fashion, glitter and unicorns or a daughter who becomes a prop forward at rugby.

I suppose that in theory a woman might imagine herself raising a dedicated young feminist, dreaming that one day they'd march side by side against the patriarchy, like the Pankhursts. Such a vision wouldn't have much room for male offspring. But people generally seem to love their children no matter what, so I don't think it's very realistic; the would-be Pankhurst would probably readjust her outlook.

"Emmeline Pankhurst's Son" could actually be screamingly funny, though.

Thank you Lass and sorry for my posts to you; thanks for being supportive of me even though we sometimes disagree

NoLove

I apologise for derailing the thread. I see things too personally sometimes and it's a weakness in debating/viewing issues I have which I should be more mindful of - so in this case I took what I believe to be the case in terms of people generally favouring sons and started posting that on this thread where it's not totally relevant. Sorry, and for the tone of my posts. I very much don't think I know it all though can see how it sometimes comes across as if I do.

Datun that's very true. Also interesting on why some might favour girls; possibly down to a sexist view of women's role in itself, expecting a daughter to be more likely to be supportive/able to give care in the future? Whereas a son might be perceived to be going to be too busy.

I have a completely trivial reason - when I was pregnant with my second, I did think it would be nice to have the set - one boy and one girl - but not enough to actually care about it, just in a completest way.

I'm pretty grumpy, so no-one's ever asked if I'll try again for a third and hope for girl. I doubt I will go for a third, but if I did, I still wouldn't care what it was - I think being very gender non-conforming myself, and not having a close relationship with my sisters or mothers means I don't have that pull (plus my boys are lovely, and one of them tends to be interested in whatever I'm doing fairly often).

I can think of one feminist reason a woman might want daughters - and that's because they feel strongly enough that they don't want to risk raising an oppressor - but that's pretty hardcore, separatist level of thinking, I don't think it's common. I think that as MrsTP says, most of the time it's the familiarity, companionship angle (which is nothing to do with feminism in particular)

Domestic violence perpetrated by sons on mothers is a lot more common than people think.

Society has no solution for it.

It's still taboo.

No wonder women are scared.