Patriarchy and the 'detached mother' article

You know I read it and felt guilty. When she got to the slings vs stroller thing I just mentally eye rolled. Slings are ace, if your kid likes them and if your back isn't utterly fucked after pregnancy. And strollers are ace too, because you can chat to your kid, not worry about slipping on ice and squishing them, and you can bung a shit ton of shopping under them. The idea that by using a pushchair you are somehow damaging your child - just fucking stop with that.

The nonsense spouted about slings drives me nuts. Yes, they're great, in many circumstances. But to say that we should (ahhh the tyranny of shoulds!) literally carry the weight of our children constantly or we are bad mothers is laughable. It's like how much more can you use to beat us up with?? Breast/bottle, sahm/work , sling/pushchair etc etc etc. You literally cannot fucking win. Back to that book I was talking about - some communities do carry kids constantly- there's usually a good reason behind it. The book cites one example of a group living a forest particularly awash with poisonous floor dwelling beasties. Other groups do not child carry. There is NO one 'natural' way of child rearing. If you're going to start spouting evolutionary bollocks at least read some anthropology.

Slings are great. Pushchairs are great. Slings are dangerous when you've got poor footing on ice. Pushchairs are fucking brilliant when you can barely walk because your pelvis is held together with gaffa tape.
Each mother/child/family has a particular set of circumstances that makes them unique. Their choices work for them. Full stop.

I can guarantee any article citing our evolutionary past a reason we 'should' be doing something will make my hackles rise

Agreed. Mine too.

I'm uncomfortable with some bits of this article. Some I agree with totally but as a feminist and a geneticist I can guarantee any article citing our evolutionary past a reason we 'should' be doing something will make my hackles rise.

I don't 'farm out' my child to child care. I'm lucky enough to live in a country with great quality subsidised childcare where I have a legal right to work 80% time. Kiddo has thrived no end in his kindergarten. We are close and loving, and this works for us.

There's a whiff of noble savage fallacy about this article. I suggest you read the book 'cherubs, chattel and changelings' which details different child rearing practices around the globe. Very different practices, from the sort of thing that attachment devotees root to extremely offhand. All 'natural'. We don't evolve 'to do' anything. That's not how evolution works.

What's the solution? I don't know. A more Scandinavian model for childcare and parental leave would be a start, but you will need to pay shitloads more tax for that. Better options and more legal protection for parents to work reduced hours (actually for everyone to) and better childcare. Fundamentally society has to change to value both parenting and work. Raising kids is valuable. Going out to work is valuable. It shouldn't be one side sniping at another.

I only made it half way through but to be honest it just seemed like another way to make mothers feel guilty to me. Or on the flip side, to make those mothers who already feel guilty feel less guilty.

Perhaps we should just stop making mothers feel guilty.

Why are these articles never directed at fathers?

I've just come back from my first postpartum shift (8 months). I pumped into a bottle and the baby's dad looked after him.

I don't see why I'm a better feminist than if he did a shift of Saturday overtime and I fed the baby with my breasts.

I can't stand capitalism-centred economics taking priority over what's best for your family/children. I'd rather be poor(er) than leave my baby in a nursery for 38 hours/week. (Assuming we had enough food etc)

by the age of 4 or 5 a child was expected not only to amuse themselves independently, but also babysit for younger siblings

This is certainly what you see in pictures from all around the world, including the UK only a few generations ago.

I'd also take issue with this:

Dr. Barry Hewlett has covered research on infant touch in his book Diverse Contexts of Human Infancy and whereas in traditional societies babies are held or touched approximately 98-99% of the time

Because I've also read this in an article on Mongolian Breastfeeding:

Then I moved away from Canada, to Mongolia, where my husband was conducting a wildlife study. There, babies are kept constantly swaddled in layers of thick blankets, tied up with string like packages you don't want to come apart in the mail. When a package murmurs, a nipple is popped in its mouth. Babies aren't changed very often, and never burped. There aren't even hands available to thrust a rattle into. Definitely no tummy time. Babies stay wrapped up for at least three months, and every time they make a sound, they're breastfed.

And given how easily I, who have no anthropology expertise can remember an exception, I can't help but think that that blanket statement is rubbish (at least in cold countries!)

I'm a computer programmer. Working around a baby is doable. Working around toddlers and kids means that you are definitely ignoring them to look after themselves for a lot of the time. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's not motherhood the way it's sold to us these days. And that's the case if your job is weaving, spinning, pottery or breadmaking too - the job requires some concentration and can't just be put down when your child wants something - just think of the babies strapped to women's backs in the fields - sure, they're attached to their mum, but their mum is hardly paying them attention, it's not some golden childhood experience.

As I seem to say wearyingly often on such threads, when I am at work, I am providing for my child, not strapping down my 36DDs and frolicking in the 'patriarchal playground' or the bewildered faux-masculine dupe of neoliberal feminism. And I'd be very interested to hear more from Helen Ball on evolutionary biology and children. Because we all know that that particular field has never been made to naturalise and dignify male aggression and promiscuity.

And frankly, enough with the prissy references to 'unnecessary medicated births', all the playground metaphors, and get your 1950s pinny on as someone finds a new way of disparaging women's choices and removing their agency.

Suggest you read the politics of breastfeeding OP.

It's really eye opening in its discussion of the separation of mother and child being big business. There is a lot of money to be made if you introduce guilt and doubt into parenting - not just formula although that's a huge industry; also in baby gadgets, things that promise to soothe baby, entertain baby etc.

There's a good bit in that book where she talks about her time in Chile, spending time with families where the home is the unit of production, so a woman can be economically active and still breastfeed on demand, hold her baby as needed etc.

Of course the flip side of that is that you don't get a great meeting of minds when people are siloed in their own houses working. Also it makes it hard for skills to be standardised if you don't have a regular chance to compare.

I am also uncomfortable with the idea that looking after children can easily be done alongside working because my own experience as a SAHM makes me question that. In reality I suspect in communities where parents work from home there is less direct interaction between caregiver and child than is usual in our society. For example I'm currently reading about Tudor attitudes to childraising and by the age of 4 or 5 a child was expected not only to amuse themselves independently, but also babysit for younger siblings. That is the reality of all available adults being busy working. It's important as Lass said not to hark back to some golden age.

Whats wrong with that Lass? One aspect of our tribal past was beneficial. If babies need touch them thats what they need. We dont need to get rid of antibiotics and air travel to make adjustments for that

No you would not get statutory maternity pay in the situation you describe as you would be self-employed, not an employee.

I am very uncomfortable with the tone of that article- particularly this

Traditionally – and I mean looking at human history, not the last few generations – the child’s biological need for touch was respected and mothering respected this. Children were physically attached to a mother (again, including male and female) and expected to be for an extended period of time yes let's go back to some golden age agrarian, tribal society wearing rose tinted glasses.

I suspect also the author of that mad article about mantilla wearing on the thread about religion would agree with most of this article.

I thought it was really intereting. I've been saying for a long time that the economy/ working system seems to deny the biology of women as mothers. The role should be valued more. However I also believe that women should be able to choose their path, full time work/motherhood or some hybrid, ie part time work, or time out of career and shouldn't be penalised for their decision in any sphere. Easier said than done though.
I also think it would be helpful if more people, men and women, identified as feminists. Ie someone who champions womens rights - not a one size fits all approach.

Yup, I agree with that article! I've heard the expression before 'men in skirts' feminism, which I think is apt. Basically, as long as you can convince me you are as good as a man just look like a woman, you're an equal. As soon as you allow that pesky uterus or breasts to get in the way of economics - you are ripe for criticism.

I feel like it's a wider problem than just mothering or feminism though. In a way I feel like it's comparable to how the very basics of our existence - the food we eat, our underwear, etc etc - are more often than not produced in a third world country for a pittance by people in awful conditions. The basics of life are undervalued in their very ubiquitousness, and as we as a species are pretty successful at reproduction, that includes childbearing/upbringing.

Don't know what the solution is really.