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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is there a red pill movie thread here?

86 replies

brexitstolemyfuture · 16/05/2017 21:10

I can't seem to find it

OP posts:
Xenophile · 17/05/2017 17:15

Chocolate.

Ah, so no biased bits on here, which is what you implied. And nothing untrue in the articles. It IS a pile of sexist, woman hating horseshit according to people who's opinions I value who have seen it.

PoochSmooch · 17/05/2017 17:14

I was pretty sure we'd had a thread about this previously...here it is

I can't imagine how the filmaker, having been funded by MRAs, managed to make a film sympathetic to MRAs. What are the chances, eh? Grin

"not funding something" does not equal "silencing" - that telegraph article is pretty disingenuous. Why would feminists finance a film that showcases people like Paul Elam, saying that women lie about being raped? Saying "this looks like heinous shit made by an MRA shill" isn't silencing - it's fair comment.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/05/2017 17:11

I was thinking about the workplace fatalities. I bet many involve the construction industry. I also bet the highest rate is in places like Saudi, Kuwait, Oman etc. I also bet the lowest rates will be in countries like the UK , Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc.

Why that should be addressed by feminists I don't know

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/05/2017 17:06

Does that include Paul Elam?

I still don't see the relevance of asking feminists about men's issues, as if it's feminism that has caused any of the issues or feminism's job to sort it out.

ChocolateFuzz · 17/05/2017 16:57

Xenophile
I have seen a lot of articles calling it a sexist, woman hating movie, it's not, it's a completely middle of the road set of interviews with a few personal notes from the director.

AssassinatedBeauty
The director brings up points the MRA's made to feminists and asks them for their opinion

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/05/2017 16:29

Is it about feminism though, Chocolate? Why were they interviewing feminists about men's issues? Seems a little counter intuitive.

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 16:24

Chocolate, which bits are biased?

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 16:23

vesuvia thanks for clarifying that point, that was of course what I meant. When men register to vote, they also have to have their details on the database, but no one has been drafted since Vietnam.

Datun · 17/05/2017 16:20

Today 15:52 ChocolateFuzz

I think everyone should watch it for themselves

Maybe men should watch it and sort their shit out. I don't know why feminists should do it.

Datun · 17/05/2017 15:56

I will never forget that film of a busy business street in China and a girl baby (I don't know if she was dead or alive) in the gutter, and businessmen and women just stepping over her like she was a discarded piece of litter.

I'm so very admiring of women who campaign against this sort of thing and are at the coalface of it all.

vesuvia · 17/05/2017 15:52

Xenophile wrote - "The easiest thing for men to do would be to fight the draft."

Many MRA's seem to live in some kind of 1950s time warp. Perhaps that is why they might not have heard that the US Government abolished their military draft 44 years ago?

(The Selective Service System, that has affected men in the USA since the draft was abolished there, is not any form of military conscription; it is registration of personal details on a database that could be used if a draft were to be reintroduced in the future).

ChocolateFuzz · 17/05/2017 15:52

I think everyone should watch it for themselves, I'm hearing a lot of biased things about it which simply aren't true.

SylviaPoe
It's a movie made by a feminist in which feminists are interviewed, why shouldn't it be here.

Datun · 17/05/2017 15:52

Xenophile

And it's affecting economics in China. Because there are so few women to go round, men are saving all their money so they have more to offer a potential partner.

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 15:48

I was really shocked when I found out that for the first time in recorded history (and almost certainly the rest of human history) there are more men than women. Femicide is taking it's toll on world demographics and it's a pretty terrifying thought.

Datun · 17/05/2017 15:38

I know. And thanks Xenophile. You expressed it brilliantly.

It's just the one that pisses me off more than all the others. There is simply nothing comparable.

That and the hundred million female foetuses killed for no reason whatsoever, other than not being male.

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 15:29

Datun

Absolutely agree. I was just trying to keep it nice and simple

Datun · 17/05/2017 15:26

Xenophile

workplace fatalities and high-risk jobs

And lets not forget the highest job risk of all. Prostitution. Where women in the US are 400 times more likely to die than the average worker.

And while we're at it, let's not forget who benefits from prostitution.

And who is responsible for the deaths.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/05/2017 14:51

OP, if this film is almost entirely about men's rights issues, why are you looking for a thread on it on the feminist board?

This

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 14:38

I'd forgotten that Paul "all women lie about rape all the time" Elam was in it. Such a joy.

SylviaPoe · 17/05/2017 13:41

American workplaces have high fatality rates (nine times UK rate) due to the following reasons:

  1. Homicide rates. You are likely to be murdered at work in the US as to die from any cause at work in the UK. The high risk in this instance is working with predominantly male colleagues or with predominantly male members of the public, as overwhelmingly violent crime is committed by males.
  1. Car accidents. US workplace fatality stats for work include car accidents for people who don't drive a vehicle as their job! Male drivers are far more likely to be involved in a car accident than female ones, whether driving to work or not. I am not sure how we can get men to drive more safely.
  1. Lack of unions and health and safety regulations. In the absence of these (far less of a culture around these in US) male culture encourages risk taking. There were large drops in deaths among fire fighters when they were forced to wear seat belts when travelling.

The vast majority of workplace fatalities and accidents are entirely preventable. Much of the risk is about behaviour not the actual work involved - look at the very high risks of injury nurses have from lifting, so they've insisted upon through unions, and abided by regulations around this.

And despite all of this, getting pregnant in the US is still over four times more dangerous than going to work in the US.

coleridge · 17/05/2017 13:39

brexitstolemyfuture
I'm not against the film on principle or anything like that, but it features the odious Paul Elam on his best behaviour, trying to make it out like he's extremely supportive of both men and women and has never said a word against women. Plenty of things he's said and written are out there to refute this argument, my personal favourite (?) being the following:

'When one of his daughters [to be clear this part is not referring to Elam, but a different man] came home one night and said she’d been raped, he said, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Sitting with us, he hikes his voice up to a falsetto in imitation: " ’Oh, I just got raped.’ " He laughs. There’s a moment of silence. A bridge too far? "I told her if she pressed charges, I’d disown her."
Elam, whose attention has drifted, grins through his beard. "That’s good fathering," he says.'

Abhorrent.

[quote from www.gq.com/story/mens-rights-activism-the-red-pill]

Collidascope · 17/05/2017 13:36

Thanks for having that patience to type that out, Xenophile. Good response.

If people are interested in men's issues docs, The Mask You Live In (Netflix) is very good and lays the charges in the right place, iirc. It's written and directed by the Jennifer Newsom who also did Miss Representation which is also good.

Xenophile · 17/05/2017 13:11

It's US based.

Was funded by a kickstarter which was heavily promoted by Breitbart and the odious MiloY, most of the people who donated were MREs/Redpillers/manosphere dudes. The film basically serves to blame feminism for every problem men have.

I'll take each of the heavy charges laid at feminism's door and try to answer them.

male suicide rates

This is an enormous issue, especially in the US where there is easy access to ways of committing suicide that aren't available elsewhere to the same extent. The reasons why people commit suicide are difficult to describe in a short paragraph, but for men, the added belief that "big boys don't cry" which is part of a truly toxic type of masculinity that also makes men more violent than women. I'm very interested to know what services the manosphere has set up to help prevent male suicide, do you have any of that information? Because generally, when the manosphere does on this issue is to get justifiably upset about it and then try and imply that women need to sort it out for them.

workplace fatalities and high-risk jobs

To take high-risk jobs first... yes, men do do a great deal of high risk jobs that women don't do, and there are a few reasons why that might be. The one the manosphere has settled on is that women simply don't want to do these jobs because men are disposable, which doesn't really bear a lot of scrutiny, given that patently men aren't disposable at all any more than women are. What seems to be a far more likely reason, and one that is borne out by the facts is that men choose to do these high risk jobs because the pay is so high and women tend not to because once you have a role that pays well, it tends to become the preserve of men and a closed shop. There are also many jobs that women have been barred from doing by overwhelmingly male governments, partly because they didn't believe that women were physically capable of doing them and partly because well paid jobs are generally reserved for men.

When men choose to take a high risk job, then they also recognise that one of the risks of that job is workplace fatalities, it's why they are paid so well. Much of the manosphere is fairly rabidly right wing and therefore anti-unions, unionisation is the best way of ensuring workers rights and safety. Instead of blaming feminism for these undoubted ills, it might serve them better to union up and fight for better safety at work.

false allegations of rape

Assassinated has already covered this.

military conscription

The easiest thing for men to do would be to fight the draft. It hasn't been used for years, conscription isn't a thing any more and it seems outdated and ridiculous. Again, because much of the manosphere is very right wing, this probably won't be something that's occurred to them. It's not women or feminists who are making men sign the draft, it's the government, so it's up to men to lobby their representatives to get this sorted.

lack of services for male victims of domestic violence and rape

I'd agree there is a lack of services, but again I'd ask what men are doing to change this? The start of the refuge movement was women taking other women into their homes, men are completely free to do that same, so the question is: why haven't they? Why do women need to be sorting this out for them as well?

higher rates of violent victimization

Who are the perpetrators?

issues concerning divorce and child custody

Things are slightly different in the USA, but in the UK the courts go from a base of 50/50 residence, if the father has been involved in his children's lives up until the split, he will have equal involvement afterwards for the most part. For whatever reason the manosphere seems to think that children are commodities and that is an enormous shame.

disparity in criminal sentencing

I can see this. In the UK women are sent to prison far more often for non violent offences than men and tend to receive longer sentences when they do commit violent crimes.

disproportionate funding and research on men's health issues

This is simply not true. However, if the manosphere believes it is, I'm sure they've done all kinds of fundraising, awareness drives and lobbying of their representatives to get it changed like women had to do for breast cancer. I was involved in one initiative in the UK, but it seems to have fizzled out a bit now.

educational inequality

Do you mean the fact that there are more educational programs aimed at getting boys to engage with school than for girls? Or that more girls graduate college than boys, but still get paid less than male college grads after a really short time?

societal tolerance of misandry

There's no such thing.

and men's lack of reproductive rights.

Men have the same reproductive rights as women right up until they impregnate them. This isn't feminism, it's nature.

SylviaPoe · 17/05/2017 12:52

OP, if this film is almost entirely about men's rights issues, why are you looking for a thread on it on the feminist board?

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/05/2017 12:26

What do you think I'm tarring them with?

Tbh, I have issues with the idea that false allegations of rape are an issue that needs addressing more than false allegations of other kinds of crimes. I don't think that you can seriously argue that there is disproportionate funding and research into men's health issues, that there is such a thing as misandry and that men lack reproductive rights.

I'd have to watch it with a pen & paper handy to make a note of everything that I find problematic, and that just doesn't sound like something I can bring myself to do. Maybe someone else has already watched it and analysed what's being suggested in it, for any factual basis. Also, is it US focussed or about the UK?