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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All gender toilets

159 replies

MissBax · 12/05/2017 18:43

Bit of a lurker on the fem chat usually but just wondered people's opinions on this.
At my university today I noticed they'd changed the women's toilets on one floor to "all gender" toilets. At first I thought ah ok that's not a big deal, there must be someone in the uni who is trans and that's why they've done it. But then when I came out of the toilets I noticed that the men's toilet and disabled toilet hadn't been changed. I can't understand the rationale of changing only the women's toilets? Or am I being overly sensitive? I'm not sure how I feel about it...

OP posts:
Ktown · 13/05/2017 10:04

Isn't it enough women have the sanitary bins for the smell and now we have to put up with men weeing on the floor and seat too.
I change in the female loos so could do without a man walking in thanks.

MissBax · 13/05/2017 10:01

Datun - agreed. I'll speak to someone on Monday - will let you all know what happens.

OP posts:
Datun · 13/05/2017 09:49

Today 09:27 MissBax

I'm a mature student (nearly 30) and I don't even think any of the younger girls would notice the inequity - I mentioned it to a few when I saw it and they just stared at me blankly...

Which is why it would be better if you just went straight to the person responsible for the policy.

Send the email, print it off and take the paper version to the person as well.

Especially as you're pregnant. Pregnant women get caught short all the time. And especially towards the end, it can be a complete palaver having to go to the toilet.

The last thing you want is to be in a loo with a whole bunch of men.

MissBax · 13/05/2017 09:27

I'm a mature student (nearly 30) and I don't even think any of the younger girls would notice the inequity - I mentioned it to a few when I saw it and they just stared at me blankly...

OP posts:
Railgunner1 · 13/05/2017 09:24

it is bloody frightening that they are doing this at UNIVERSITY out of all places.
i'd get a bunch of girls to march into men's in protest. Wink

sticklebrix · 13/05/2017 09:07

JaxingJump The thing is that very many women are not happy enough with mixed-sex toilets. What should they do?

MissBax · 13/05/2017 08:54

Jaxing I dont have a problem with gender free / all gender toilets per se. As I said when I first noticed I didn't think much of it. It was only when I noticed that the men's on that floor hadn't been changed that I saw the inequity of it.
Why if I'm in a lecture, should men have nothing disrupted, yet women do - as is often the case? If I wanted some privacy I'd have to walk to a toilet on another floor. My uni isn't small and I'd miss 15-20 mins of a lecture. I'm actually pregnant at the moment so need to go alot.

OP posts:
JaxingJump · 13/05/2017 08:34

I'm happy enough with genderfree toilets. I guess the practical issue of urinals is a bit behind. It might make sense ultimately to have all toilets and urinals in one public toilet area with cubicals for all.

jellyfrizz · 13/05/2017 08:31

I personally wouldn't muddy the waters by talking about being agender, which will just confuse them..

I think it would be useful for them to think about it for a minute to figure out that segregating on the lines of feelings can't work.

But yes, biology is the most important point.

But from now on if anyone calls me cis I will be bashing them on the head (metaphorically of course - not condoning violence) with my agender flag.

Terfing · 13/05/2017 02:16

This made me laugh earlier...

All gender toilets
SylviaPoe · 13/05/2017 01:49

I was joking about agender loos, just to be clear.

Datun · 12/05/2017 22:25

Sex segregation:

Muslim women - because they're women - ie biology
Periods and blood - biology
Miscarriage - biology
Morning sickness - biology
Pregnancy tests - biology
Predators - biology

Sex discrimination - biology

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/05/2017 22:22

'Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy.'

Definitely.
I personally wouldn't muddy the waters by talking about being agender, which will just confuse them - I would use the broken record technique and repeat that I need a single sex toilet and ask why they have removed this provision.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 22:10

Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy. They won't have, it'll just have seemed like an inclusive progressive thing to do and they will not have looked at how it affects any other group except trans. For all their shouting, trans activists are among the least intersectional-minded group out there. It is always, always about them, and fuck everybody else.

Yes! What about us agender females?

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 22:08

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

Yeah they'd probably do an agender and allgender wouldn't they? Still, as it stands there is nowhere for an agender female to wee. Which is illegal or against human rights or literal violence or something.

PencilsInSpace · 12/05/2017 22:08

Email definitely. I like Datun's and Countess's suggestions. Sex discrimination is still a thing recognised in law, it's up to us to use that law while we still can.

Also, depending on the mix of students, you might want to bring up the issue of muslim women being expected to share a female space with male people and the implications of that. The same groups that are hot on transphobia are also hot on Islamophobia IME.

Ask them whether they have done an impact assessment for this policy. They won't have, it'll just have seemed like an inclusive progressive thing to do and they will not have looked at how it affects any other group except trans. For all their shouting, trans activists are among the least intersectional-minded group out there. It is always, always about them, and fuck everybody else.

Be careful - you might face flack if you make your objections public. Up to you how much risk you want to take. If you feel you can risk doing stuff in person then please go for it, but be prepared.

Laurapalmer90 · 12/05/2017 22:01

*This has been discussed with regard to a public toilet, where also only the women's toilet was changed. Many people here are very angry about it.

It is really revealing, isn't it?

Women's right to privacy is under attack.

It is not about trans people, it is about giving males access to women's spaces. If it were about trans people, they'd change the men's toilet, too.

That said, if you see a man in there, do ask him to leave and complain if he doesn't.
After all, the sign says "all genders", not "all sexes". Gender is a social construct. And there's no problem with female people who identify as trans, non-binary or dinosaur using the women's toilets.*

This. I'm really, really angry about this too.

Ask them why they are leaving the men's toilets as they are. Why don't they convert half of the space in each men's bathroom to accommodate MTT? Or why don't they have a third bathroom? Why are they forcing this on women who need privacy and dignity? Also, the safety issue is important. If biological males are allowed into female spaces there IS a risk that females could be attacked especially as it is known that some men identify as women to gain access to women's spaces and abuse and hurt them.

Many MTT are scared to use the men's toilets because of the threat of male violence against them, usually from strangers. Women in abusive relationships are scared of their partner hitting or raping them. Heterosexual men have been attacked in toilets. It’s pretty rare but it does happen. I always wonder why then, is it not the same when a female says that she has the SAME fear of male bodied violence from a male who is a complete stranger to her in a female space?

Finally, definitely email. It's always a good idea to have a paper trail of these kinds of things. You could also print it out and deliver it to them.

BigDeskBob · 12/05/2017 22:00

They will probably say the cost of removing urinals and installing sanitary bins prohibits changing the men's loo's to 'all genders'. That, and men would hate queueing.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:59

Seriously though talk to them in their own terms and tell them you are an agender female and now have nowhere to go to the toilet.

Do you have a gender identity? Do you believe in sex role stereotypes?

No? Well then you are agender and cannot use the all gender toilets. You are not male or disabled so can't use those. There is nowhere for you to go to the toilet as an agender female (aka feminist).

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:52

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

Or just male and female would be fine by me.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/05/2017 21:41

You need to complain about sex discrimination. You should tell them you need single sex toilets for personal reasons, which will worry them far more than if you specify mooncup washing or pregnant vomiting, because anything specific to women is easy to dismiss.

SylviaPoe · 12/05/2017 21:40

Exactly, there is nowhere for you to go Jelly!

You could perhaps demand that the male toilets are designated for all genders and the female toilets are designated for people without a gender.

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:38

I imagine most feminists will identify as agender - no?

jellyfrizz · 12/05/2017 21:37

But Sylvia as an agender female I would have nowhere to go to the toilet at MissBax's university. As a woman I would have used the women's loos but now there's nowhere for me.

Datun · 12/05/2017 21:36

Sorry for rant. I'm furious.

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