All gender toilets

gingers

What were they thinking????

I mean Really?

We went to view secondary schools for my DD. The first school that we viewed had open unisex toilets. They were just off the corridor with a big round sink in the middle. The cubicles were not floor to ceiling and I could tell by my daughters face that she would not use them. I wouldn't have either.
I would feel so uncomfortable as a girl using them, with the boys using them and messing around by the sink, and what about when you have your period... ugh, I was really not comfortable about it. Asked the teacher showing us around about it, and he said it was a new thing that the school had incorporated to prevent bullying in separate toilet blocks.
Needless to say, She didn't go to that school. Fortunately the second school we viewed was lovely with separate loos for boys and girls.

Posted too soon. An inconsistency between supporting religious women's preference for modesty and removing the single sex facilities which enable them to balance modesty with work, study, life outside the home.

Re. headscarves - definitely an inconsistency in SJW thought here.

Yes I was going to say similar Terfing.

In my works loos today a muslim colleague was using the mirror to re-do her head scarf. She took it right off to do this. I doubt she'd want to do this with a bloke in there with her.

This will especially affect religious women who probably won't use public facilities at all now.

Or indeed, go to use public toilets....

Where that is an excellent article and hits the nail on the head very eloquently. I've often felt wrong footed by men acting hurt when I've pointed out the need for women's safe spaces - because I can see that they feel personally maligned and often ended up being manipulated into feeling bit sorry for them. Being middle aged has some benefits in that now I am largely ignored rather than harassed, but I have two daughters and their growing up frightens the hell out of me, and is why I've reawakened my inner feminist . I now also see that, whilst it is maybe a bit unfair if you're a decent bloke to be excluded from women's safe spaces (although surely if you have any female relatives and the tiniest morsel of empathy you can see the need) it's even more unfair to be a woman questioning if you can do a thing men routinely do (e.g. walk home alone after a night out) safely and without assault.

The very point that is made in this article FerretsAreFeminists.

This is why we have women-only spaces, and why I don't want to hear your complaints

I was recently at Gatwick before 6am, and when I went to the toilets they were empty, quite distant from the main area, and a bit spooky.

It made me wonder what I would have felt if they had been gender neutral. I think I would have freaked if a man had come in at the same time as me, let alone sat in the next cubicle. If a man had come in and the toilets were "Ladies" then I could have legitimately rushed out and reported him. As gender neutral toilets, I would have been behaving in a discriminatory way if I had looked askance at him and hurried off.

You see, this is what confuses me. On one hand women are constantly told that we need to keep ourselves safe and not put ourselves in risky situations but then we're also being told that we need to accept men into our toilets and other spaces. If any woman objects to this then she is told she is being paranoid and to quit tarring all men with the same brush as not all men are predators.

I made this point on another thread on here recently but I think it's relevant here too and quite frankly it just makes me scratch my head in confusion. We can't constantly tell women that we need to take responsibility for our own personal safety but at the same time tell us that we need to welcome men into our spaces with open arms.

Call me cynical but I bet if a woman has to use the all gender toilets in a nightclub or deserted station and a man assaults her whilst she's in there then there will be countless people asking wtf she was doing in there, what did she expect using the gender neutral toilets in those situations, she should have taken more responsibility for her safety, etc.

So if we object to all gender toilets and object to not wanting to share with men then we are at the very least being paranoid and tarring all men with the same brush and at the very worst we are transphobic bigots. However if we use the all gender toilets and we are assaulted then that would be our fault for not being more careful. Either way, women just can't win.

Today 20:43 Ineedacupofteadesperately

I meant the prison link, not the situation with your old boss although that sounds less than ideal too.....

Haha. Yeah, I did do a double take!!

Ineedacupofteadesperately

If you're having trouble persuading your DH that this is real, and happening now, there are quite a few Facebook pages that I have recently come across which highlight the issue.

Centering Women is quite a good one. It already assumes you know something about the subject though. So would probably be a relief for you in terms of seeing other people who get it. And it's fairly civil.

Exposing Trans Rights Activists is another.

Mostly, they just post screenshots of what activists are saying. It's an eye-opener. But you do need wine.

The commentators have reached Peak Trans, so sometimes it does descend into a bit of a bloodbath of fuck off, no you fuck off.

But the screenshots speak for themselves. But there is absolutely no denying, that when women say they are worried about men in their bathrooms, the answer to that is to threaten them.

I meant the prison link, not the situation with your old boss although that sounds less than ideal too.....

Datun that is horrifying.

FuckYeah

Me neither. I don't understand how women are fine with unisex loos.

Maybe if they're ultra modern and constantly cleaned. Or if there are 5 or 6 to choose from. Which limits the mess...

In a job I had, there was one loo, right behind where my (male) boss sat. Literally 2 feet.

It was clean and beautifully proportioned but I had to train myself to wee without being self conscious.

I'm not sure if it would be better, or worse, if he was actually in a cubicle right next to me.

I don't like shared sink space either.
I really resent the situation that women can't challenge men being in their private space any more.

Ineedacupofteadesperately

Unfortunately, your DH is wrong. Just Google transwomen in women's prison, you get dozens.

Like this one.

“The Plaintiffs have been forced to share intimate facilities with men, who allege they are women,” the Feb. 15 complaint states. “These men openly express their sexual desire for the women inmates, at times, in the showers, and bathrooms, while women are naked or partially clothed.
“The men expose themselves, intentionally, for their own sexual gratification, causing the Plaintiffs to suffer disgust, embarrassment, humiliation, stress, degradation, fear and loss of dignity.”

They were told they were prejudiced and their concerns were not warranted.

www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php/1149547-Texas-Women-prisoners-forced-to-shower-with-trans-quot-women-quot-trans-quot-women-quot-openly-express-their-sexual-desire-for-the-women-inmates

I don't like the idea of unisex cubicles because I'm scared of being filmed. I know some people will think that is a disproportionate fear and no, I don't think all men go around hiding video cameras but it does happen and I have reason to worry about it. I've been to a couple of restaurants with unisex labelled cubicles and shared sink areas and I'm not comfortable with the shared sink area either.

The restaurants I'm talking about have toilets that are individual rooms containing a toilet and sink etc- with proper full length locking doors that open directly into the main corridor so can't see how safety could be an issue? The ones I've been to have been clean, but it probably depends on the cleaning frequency.

I've had to use (or avoid using) unisex toilets in restaurants, bars and airports and I have never found them as clean as ones reserved just for women. In this bar it is as you describe, but tucked away out of sight. I won't use it. To be fair, there have been places where I have refused to use the women's because it hasn't looked safe.

DH doesn't disagree with me (since I woke up to the danger to womens' safe spaces thanks to mumsnet) but thinks the things I'm worried about won't happen & the fears are overblown

No criticism of you Ineedacupoftea (so do I) but it's very easy for him to say this. He's not the one whose space is at risk and also, as a man, has always lived with far less of the risk women and girls face simply being in public space due to our sex. He should try to be a little understanding of why so many are concerned and see that his own privilege is probably leading him to dismiss this as "overblown".

yetanother the restaurants I'm talking about have toilets that are individual rooms containing a toilet and sink etc- with proper full length locking doors that open directly into the main corridor so can't see how safety could be an issue? The ones I've been to have been clean, but it probably depends on the cleaning frequency.

Lancelottie agree, it couldn't be gender neutral it would have to be disabled, trans (and where there are baby changing units mums and babies too). So it didn't become a free for all.

Or just replace communal toilets with individual ones. I've noticed a couple of restaurants have done this recently. It must be the way forward I think and then men will have to queue with the women - result

My favourite bar has unisex toilets. I rarely stay long because they are filthy. I don't mean that they are never cleaned, I mean that the floor and seat is covered with piss and the san bin is often wedged open with rubbish. I don't find this so often in women's toilets, especially not the wee issue. Plus, I don't feel safe. This is a naice bar, by the way, not a student dive.

Datun yes agree entirely, I suppose what I was trying to say (not very well) was that given the well known problems of sexual assault at universities, the fact they've done this just beggars belief & shows how clearly they are prioritising the needs of the 1% over the 50% (or indeed the other 50% - men) and how worried we should be about all those other things. DH doesn't disagree with me (since I woke up to the danger to womens' safe spaces thanks to mumsnet) but thinks the things I'm worried about won't happen & the fears are overblown (perhaps a touch of the 'hysterical woman' mentality although I'll give him the benefit of the doubt ) but if this is actually happening I don't see how they can be. Imagine the impact on any female student who has been a victim of sexual assault of these changes?

I get why disabled people would not want trans people in their hard won toilets, but given they are individual lockable rooms I can't help but feel this is a better solution than making women's toilets gender neutral.

No. Again, this is not the solution. Making disabled toilets the gender-neutral option means that they are open to 100% of people, not just to disabled + the trans 1%. No bloody way should disabled people have the only loos they can access suddenly opened to everyone.