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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hearing on Canada's Bill C-16 regarding gender identity and gender expression

34 replies

BlueSunGreenMoon · 11/05/2017 13:01

You can hear Meghan Murphy’s testimony here:

purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2017/05/10/radical-feminist-testimony-on-bill-c-16/

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LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 13:50

As Theryn Meyer pointed out (and Murphy and Kerner also mentioned but only in passing), 'gender identity' is impossibly vague and legally incoherent

To be fair to Murphy and Kerner it is far easier for Meyer to say that. They would likely be accused of transphobia if they did. Meyer certainly gets accused of being transphobic. I suspect there are responses to Meyer's apearance accusing her of that.

It's odd that some one like Miranda Yardley, a down to earth, outspoken, Marxist trans woman and Meyer , a glamorous, outspoken, libertarian trans woman both get accused of not being true trans.

DonkeySkin · 13/05/2017 13:26

Although on the one hand I was glad that the feminist analysis of gender was presented at the hearings, overall I agree with Lass that Hilla Kerner's and Meghan Murphy's testimonies are unlikely to change the minds of any of the senators. Lass is right: an argument such as that pursued by Shapiro or Carlson, which exposes the inherent absurdities of the whole notion of 'gender identity', would probably have been more effective (maybe even devastatingly effective).

As Theryn Meyer pointed out (and Murphy and Kerner also mentioned but only in passing), 'gender identity' is impossibly vague and legally incoherent, and politicians should be called to account for their attempts to create a protected category that has no objective, definable characteristics. While Murphy made an admirable case for the feminist analysis of gender, the sad truth is that most people don't care. Most people don't really believe that women are an oppressed class of persons (whereas everyone seemingly accepts at face value that any man who claims to be a woman is horribly oppressed), so it is very difficult to get them to care about the ways that gender hurts women, or to see any harm in allowing men to appropriate the category of 'woman'.

The other big problem that the feminists faced and which is, I think, the central problem for everyone who is attempting to put the brakes on anti-woman gender identity legislation, is that the senators were clearly operating on the belief that 'transwoman' means transsexual, i.e., an ultra-feminine, likely gay man who has undergone full transition with surgery and who passes as a woman reasonably well - someone like Theryn Meyer, in other words. As anyone who is familiar with the current state of the trans movement knows, most of the males who identify as transwomen are heterosexual, non-passing men who intend to keep and use their penises - but so few of their supporters seem to realise that! That's why bringing up Stefonknee or Danielle Muscato would probably have been much more effective than attempting to explain patriarchy theory in five minutes.

And that is one of the peculiar ironies of this whole gender identity madness: the trans movement is advancing its agenda by using old-school transsexuals as political cover, while at the same time the legislation they push is explicitly designed to obliterate the meaning of transsexual, and is instead intended to allow any man, at any or no stage of transition, to claim a 'female identity', and make it illegal for anyone to question him or deny him access to female spaces or programs on the basis of his self-declaration. In other words, like all legislation that protects the sexist and nonsensical category of 'gender identity', it essentially abolishes sex as a legal category, rendering any sex-based protections for women moot. I really wish someone had made that point, instead of arguing about the oppressions faced by 'female-born women' vs 'transwomen', and who has it worse. Most people will always believe that trans males have it much, much worse, because most people think sexism is just women whining about nothing anyway.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:39

Even transwomen know this law is a clusterfuck

Here is Theryn Meyer's testimony

Theryn Meyer has spoken out in support of a Canadian university lecturer who was getting hammered for incorrect pronoun useage.

Meyer is a libertarian, professional contrarian. I quite like her , but that is a minority opinion on here. She certainly has no time for the likes of Riley Dennis and "literal violence"

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/05/2017 12:08

I agree about mentioning the word patriarchichy [sic]. It is one of those words that can still produce an eye roll and you lose half your audience.

Isn't it weird that 'transphobia' doesn't?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:06

Sorry to be clear, obviously neither Shapiro or Carlson are giving evidence here but have commented on trans issues elsewhere.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:05

I suppose feminists could use a long phrase such as "the male-centric set of values that oppress women and girls based on biological sex" instead of "patriarchy".

It's better. I listened to the opening statements of the 3 and frankly I don't think either Murphy's or the other woman whose name I can't remember were particularly good. I'll probably get told I suffer from internalised misogyny for saying this but the 3rd male speaker whose name I also can't remember made a better case.

It's not people like you she has to convince. I didn't find her particularly convincing- dismissing me as "but you're not a feminist" doesn't make her argument any more convincing.

She had 5 minutes to present a strong, attention grabbing case and she didn't.

Again, I expect this won't go down well either but the videos posted of Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson took less than 5 minutes and made the same points more effectively.

vesuvia · 13/05/2017 11:43

Datun wrote - "I agree about mentioning the word patriarchichy [sic]. It is one of those words that can still produce an eye roll and you lose half your audience."

I suppose feminists could use a long phrase such as "the male-centric set of values that oppress women and girls based on biological sex" instead of "patriarchy".

There are pros and cons to both options. Patriarchy is obviously shorter but it is also obscure to many people. I think many people mistakenly assume that patriarchy doesn't actually exist now and was only something from past times, such as a father deciding which man his daughter could marry.

Although my suggested alternative phrase is longer, it does give more explicit details about what feminists are currently fighting against.

YorkshireTree · 13/05/2017 11:08

Even transwomen know this law is a clusterfuck.

Here is Theryn Meyer's testimony.

DixieFlatline · 13/05/2017 00:55

Sorry, should have clarified - it's not the full hearing, but seems to be the full version of the part with those against the bill.

DixieFlatline · 13/05/2017 00:55

I watched the following after watching Magdalen's small clip:

Holy fuck, I don't even know what to say about Serge Joyal (the last senator to ask a question).

BlueSunGreenMoon · 12/05/2017 23:16

I found this good about the implications of the US banning "conversion therapy". This is the US not Canada but I thought I'd share it as it relates to gender identity.

thefederalist.com/2017/05/11/conversion-therapy-bans-trojan-horse-ensnaring-transgender-children/

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PencilsInSpace · 12/05/2017 20:04

Brilliant testimony. Bill C-16 seems to be about the same as the leaked Labour manifesto pledge.

Datun · 12/05/2017 07:59

lass

I agree about mentioning the word patriarchichy. It is one of those words that can still produce an eye roll and you lose half your audience.

In terms of voyeurism. Obviously the crime would still exist. I was taking my own advice and using a sensationalist comment to make a point to my MP.

The point being, for someone with AGP, being a voyeur is their modus operandi. Watching, listening to women going about their private business in an intimate space is what gets them off.

They would be committing a crime, but to all intents and purposes it would be a state sanctioned. Because women would have to ignore it on the basis of let's pretend you're a woman.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/05/2017 01:58

If the person came in for no purpose other than ogling I can't see why that would not be treated as voyeurism. I have no idea how this works for a genuine user of the facilities who happened to be trans. Personally the thought of being naked in an open plan public changing room with other women would put me off going anyway but I appreciate that's not the point.

But claiming that the mere presence of a trans person in a public toilet means the crime of voyeurism no longer exists is a ridiculous exaggeration.

SylviaPoe · 12/05/2017 01:42

Lass, what I was wondering about is this.

If women and girls were in states of undress in an open plan changing and shower area for females (my gym at the sports centre is like that), and a man came in while women and girls were naked, and would not leave, would that not be voyeurism or a similar crime? If he got undressed would it be indecent exposure?

But then under proposed laws of self ID, can he just walk in and do that?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/05/2017 01:04

But yes, being in a toilet with a woman effectively eliminates the crime of voyeurism, as they have a legitimate right to be there

No it doesn't.

Voyeurism would be trying to peer over or under a cubicle occupied by a woman. If any person is doing that it is voyeurism no matter what they call themselves. Trans women don't come equipped with x-ray specs.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/05/2017 00:58

The only thing I would like to have seen her done is to have a bit more of what people call the common touch

So trying to get the general public to relate to what she was saying, rather than people who already understand feminism 101

I think she managed to mention "the patriarchy" about half a dozen times. Just my personal opinion but I don't think people care about "the patriarchy"

Datun · 11/05/2017 23:55

Is voyeurism classed as a sexual assault or not? It is surely a sex crime.

sylvia.

Voyeurism is a crime on its own. As far as I know, the law says you are not allowed to watch/film somebody doing something private. Private been the important word.

So standing under some open stairs and looking up a girl's skirt as she ascends, is not voyeurism as she is not doing something private.

But yes, being in a toilet with a woman effectively eliminates the crime of voyeurism, as they have a legitimate right to be there.

I did point that out to my MP. That voyeurism as a crime would cease to exist under those circumstances.

There was a thread in AIBU recently about transwomen going on a website called Mrs Gloss. The OP was saying she was uncomfortable by some of the things they were talking about.

I should imagine she had a load of AGP individuals getting off on being able to discuss tights and dresses.

I was trying to work out whether the fact that the OP would have been in the privacy of her own home, on her laptop could be construed as 'private'. I can't remember the exact wording of the crime, but it would seem to fit if what she was doing was private.

So, a whole raft of new legislation needs to be put in place.

Unfortunately you won't be able to apply it to a transwoman in a women's space.

SisterMoonshine · 11/05/2017 19:56

torontoist.com/2016/12/are-jordan-petersons-claims-about-bill-c-16-correct/

canadafreepress.com/article/protecting-transgender-people-from-bill-c-16

I like this open letter.
What's involved in passing this bill then?
How many hearings do they have and what sort of timescale?

DJBaggySmalls · 11/05/2017 18:54

But a lot of men are controlling bullies. And gender self ID doesnt need men to actually do anything other than make a statement.

The current situation (in the UK) is what I now call 'The Nordic Model' of toilets. Men are not supposed to be in there. Women let them in under tolerance, for example if they are with their children or using the baby changing station.
If they are acting maliciously we can just get them thrown out.

Gender self ID would change that and give all men the legal right to be in the toilets. I cant understand why anyone would need to support that.

BlueSunGreenMoon · 11/05/2017 18:50

Has anyone watched the full hearing? Purple sage has linked to it. I've not watched it myself.

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BigDeskBob · 11/05/2017 18:47

I would have thought that, without filming, it would be virtually impossible to be charged with voyeurism? A MTT is just a women in a changing room wherever they look. And how do you prove a man is not a MTT?

We are just lucky that very few men are voyeurs, and even fewer would go to the trouble of pretending to be MTT. Hmm

SylviaPoe · 11/05/2017 18:02

Is voyeurism classed as a sexual assault or not? It is surely a sex crime.

A man who deliberately enters and remains in a space where women and girls are undressed is a sex offender, and the number of victims would be very great if he repeatedly carried out this offence.

BigDeskBob · 11/05/2017 17:50

I agree women are both punished for going against the patriarchy, and can receive certain benefits from it.

I wonder also, if for some women, it just seems so unimportant because we are talking about such a small number of men? That is, the chance of coming face to face with a MTT is small, the chance of meeting a rapist mtt is even smaller, and the probability of meeting a rapist MTT who is in the position to rape is so, so tiny, its not worth worrying about? The number of MTT will be greater than the number of girls/women assaulted, so go with what makes the greater number happy?

patodp · 11/05/2017 15:47

There are trickle-down benefits, yet but there are more punishments for non-compliance than there are benefits for compliance. (Compliance to rigid patriarchal gender roles such as hyper sexualisation of women and machismo of men)
Forcing children to trans is one of those punishments.