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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It's always about the toys...

81 replies

Barcoo2 · 11/05/2017 01:54

Every single article I've read about a child being transed, whether it's in the Daily Mail or a more reputable source, or a mummy blog or whatever, has mentioned that they preferred 'girly' toys or rejected 'girly' toys. Girly toys are always dolls and princesses. Boyish toys are not mentioned as distinctly. Usually girls who want to be boys are framed in terms of their rejection of the girly toys.

So is it all about the toys? My three year old has made enough throw away comments ('I want to be a boy knight', sticking a macaroni in her labia and boasting about a willy) and has had enough interests in pirates, dinosaurs etc for me to trans her if I was so inclined.

Does anyone have any articles or links that don't mention toys AT ALL? I'd really appreciate it if you had any...I'm just finding the whole thing so clear cut in that EVERY CASE I've read is about a rejection of social constructions of gender, guided by the parents, rather than an innate femininity that represents what real females feel or whatever.

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BlueSunGreenMoon · 14/05/2017 17:23

From what I've read about Enid Blyton's own life I get the impression she resented her mother who did nothing but housework (in Enid's eyes) and expected Enid to do it too, while her brothers were afforded much more freedom. She wrote several girl characters who were George-like. Many of her girl characters who were not considered to be tomboys back when she wrote them, also are far more 'tomboyish' compared to today's standards. I do wonder what she would have made of the current gender movement.

BeyondStrongAndStable · 14/05/2017 12:14

"first of all your discrimination credentials must be checked. Which results in a race to the bottom to prove you're worth it"

YES!!

Datun · 14/05/2017 08:00

BBCNewsRave

Yeah, I find it a massive wind up and a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.

So first of all your discrimination credentials must be checked. Which results in a race to the bottom to prove you're worth it.

But what I also see happening (and you might have a different experience than this), is your credentials to care, must also be checked.

The people with the most power to make a difference, ie those with privilege, are automatically excluded from talking on the basis of that privilege.

The result is people being discriminated against can't talk about it because someone will always be found who has it worse.

And those who want to help aren't allowed because they live in ivory towers and don't get an opinion. And in this alternative fact world, even those who do come from a position of being right at the discriminatory coalface, as it were, will be found wanting.

The discriminated against can't talk, and you can't help unless you are also discriminated against.

And as it's just a question of how many points you can accrue, all the effort is spent doing that.

This is how it appears online anyway. I fervently hope that it's not actually reflected in real life? That support for minorities in the form of donations, charities, campaigning and lobbying is still actually happening at the same level.

coleridge · 13/05/2017 17:44

I gravitated towards sciency toys (supposedly for boys...bore off!) as a child, but I liked dolls too and I loved to read (supposedly more girly). Grew up to be a biomedical scientist who usually wears dresses and has long hair. Also a massive nerd with mostly 'masculine' hobbies. I'm sure the trans cult would be quick to label me as agender or non-binary or bigender. They don't seem to believe that someone can have interests, an individual personality, and things that they gravitate towards that don't define them as a human being. We have our biology, and then we are individuals with different outlooks and likes and dislikes. Toys should not be gendered. Activities and hobbies should not be gendered. Professions should not be gendered. It's ridiculous. Liking something 'meant for' the other sex does not mean you are that sex.

BBCNewsRave · 13/05/2017 17:24

Yes, Datun, that's it. Plus, some of the people who are very outspoken about certain causes seem to employ other forms of discrimination, as if it's all ok for the glorious cause. We see it in the trans debate, where women are dismissed (as ever), but also things like educated (white) anti-racism campaigners mocking others because they can't spell, rather than attacking the racism itself. If I were to put it into a metaphor (?), it's like if they came across someone needing help, they'd have to consult a chart to decide whether the person was in a selected oppressed group before helping them (or not). Rather than just giving a shit about the person.

Datun · 13/05/2017 15:26

BBCNewsRave

I think I get it. People always been discriminated against for one reason or another. As people became more aware, suddenly the very concept of discrimination changed. Some people viewed being discriminated against as something to aspire to. Hence the Oppression Olympics.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, all the people who were discriminated against, still are.

BBCNewsRave · 13/05/2017 15:17

I'm not sure I explained that very well . I just have met quite a few of these people and they don't care.

BBCNewsRave · 13/05/2017 15:13

Erm, that video is horrendous.

This infuriates me about , argh... don't even know what to call them, but SJW's I guess who seem to just pick a cause and run with it, no critical thinking, and they still discriminate against others if that particular "ism" isn't socially desirable enough, or something... I mean, being labelled mentally ill and female should give me a bunch of privilege points, but funnily enough these people don't defer to me in conversation and fight for my rights. Whereas other causes would have them champing at the bit and sharpening their pitchforks.

Anway, these fools (who often appear to be in it to satisfy a desire for tribal warfare rather than a considered and coherant worldview) make a mockery of fighting for equality, as we can see with the bonkers trans ideology. Then it's so easy for others to take the piss and dismiss it all as nonsense. As this video shows - they are equating male priviledge with "not having BO priviledge" FGS!!

Like, they guy in video when they're totting up priviledge points... he's listing stuff like "BO" FGS! In real like he would be "discriminated" against, and no-one would give a fuck!

MariposaNieve · 13/05/2017 11:09

Fish Brilliant, I've seen it on Facebook before. Shared it straight away.

Makes a bit of a mockery of affirmative action, however many sjw-types are making a mockery of it already!

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 13/05/2017 09:53

Marisopia I watched a video yesterday that expressed pretty much the same message as your post.

I'll link it if you're interested.

I'm not too sure about a few bits of it, but a lot of it resonates with what my dc and I have been through.

ChocChocPorridge · 12/05/2017 15:18

My kids have inherited a lack of bother about clothes from me - so whilst they don't have a hand sewn wardrobe (although they do have a fair bit of hand knitted, because I can do that in front of the TV, and needles are less interesting to them than my sewing machine!), they both just wear what they've been issued that morning which is just jeans/joggers/shorts and long/short-sleeved t-shirt and some kind of jumper.

I agree that it's way more simple that way, and I'm glad none of them have ever been obsessed with items of clothing (or particular toys actually.. they're just very chill in general about stuff)

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 14:37

Sometimes I wonder if society's recent insistence on branding children with their cultural and personal preferences via their clothes is contributing to this gender identity epidemic (by that I mean the 55 genders). It becomes important to toddlers that other people know their identity, prrsonality, that it's reflected on their clothes. God knows you hear from enough mothers how X will only wear his Thomas jumper or Y is attached to his superhero tshirt, or Z wants to wear the Frozen dress every day. It makes clothing very, very important to children in a way it never used to be, except perhaps on special occasions in a new suit or some such.

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nauticant · 12/05/2017 12:43

I'm well impressed by this Maoist style for young kids' clothes. There should be more of it.

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 11:25

Mariposa I agree with you. Cultural relatavism used to defend the subjugation of women can go and get fucked.

I don't see women's liberation as Western decadence but as an expression of universal modernity. Women in the west used to have to cover their hair and ankles etc. If i say I don't like a headscarf for modesty's sake I am not just criticising patriarchal elements of Islam, I am criticising MY culture as it was. (I'm anglo)

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MariposaNieve · 12/05/2017 11:19

Fish

Kinda like how it's more important to many people not to be perceived as racists, than analysing how women are thought of/treated in the East, specifically within Islam (which leads to calls of Islamphobia).

Criticism of ideologies and religions is healthy if done for reasons of morality and liberation etc. Imo anyway, some may disagree on here, I'm not sure what the general consensus is on what I just said here.

PoochSmooch · 12/05/2017 11:07

fish, I'm really glad that your child is getting some support. That is great news for you and your family Flowers

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/05/2017 11:00

That's the way it should be dozer but trying to find a counsellor that deals with 'gender identity' and isnt encouraging and is willing to discuss the negatives is really difficult.

It seems not being perceived to be transphobic is more important than the welfare of thousands of children.

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 10:58

The lobby drives a wedge between children and their parents. Divide and conquer tactics.

Datun with the clothes it's because I'm a bit lazy (can't be fucked buying lots of little lengths of coloured cloth) hence I just go with one colour per child. I don't dress them in the same colours, no twinning here. I have a general rule of no prints, no slogans, no logos, no applique. Woollen jumpers are varied though so they're not always in the same outfit, likewise I make a fair amount of frocks. Children look better whrn their clothes are just fading into the background, it lets their faces and personality speak for themselves. I've found when my daughter is in a frock (i like traditional liberty florals, again because it's a plain style) people comment on the pink flowers to her Hmm
I remember being told that the way you toilet train is by buying peppa pig knickers Hmm no thanks. Knickers are just utilitarian items here. I'm sure I'll be told to put the boy in thomas the fucking train knickers when he's bigger Hmm

Disclaimer: the children have a million toys and books. I'm only an aesthete around clothes.

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Dozer · 12/05/2017 10:30

It's not "transphobic" at all. And your DC's health and future fertility are far more important than pandering to an often unreasonable and misogynist trans lobby.

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 12/05/2017 10:26

Thanks everyone. There have been a few times that my child has been so upset I've very nearly agreed to blockers, and many a night I've sat in tears because I felt like I was torturing my poor child. I also think if my child does transition in future I may well regret the choices I've made but thankfully, for now, it seems to be paying off. I certainly don't feel like a good mum, but I would absolutely support my child regardless of which path they take, although I will always hope they become accepting of themselves without invasive treatments and surgery.

I am aware of Jazz Jennings datun I can't express how terrifying this all is. Kids aren't making informed choices because it's transphobic to inform them properly of all the consequences Sad

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 09:33

I'd like to claim George as a TERF! Clearly she is like so many radfems' childhoods. We should use her face as a mascot Grin

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Datun · 12/05/2017 08:38

Because all the lesbians have been told they're actually transmen I expect.

Yup.

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 08:30

Because all the lesbians have been told they're actually transmen I expect.

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Datun · 12/05/2017 07:47

Barcoo2

That's fascinating, the way you dress your children. Did you decide to do that for practical reasons?

I loved George Kirrin.

I think your analysis is completely right. Anne was portrayed as ladylike and always in need of rescue (if I remember correctly). George was a great foil.

Although George being fierce and not always getting it right used to annoy me. She wasn't the hero. Irritating.

I thought she had been claimed as a lesbian. Trans now?

Barcoo2 · 12/05/2017 06:13

So let's talk about George Kirrin. Did she have dysphoria? Or was it all about the toyz for her? I've had a quick check and yes she is being claimed as a transman on Tumblr: "I think she is more trans than a tomboy", goes one poster.

In my opinion George's objection to being a girl is completely and absolutely rooted in society's treatment of girls. She saw the freedom and opportunities that boys had and she wanted that for herself. Her solution was to think of herself as someone who is just as capable as a boy. She wanted to be seen as a boy so society/people didn't make assumptions about her interests or capabilities, rather than being seen as a boy because she was biologically one inside.

What do you reckon?

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