I am a feminist and a sahm

Women changing name upon marriage is one of the most accepted everyday sexist things which happen in my opinion. If it wasn't, as many men as women would change theirs. It's also completely sexist that most of the time when a woman doesn't change her name but goes on to have children, they automatically get their father's surname. If I ever have children, there is absolutely no way they'd not be getting mine.

I was just about to recommend All Mothers Work too.

Also Mothers At Home Matter, and Vanessa Olorenshaw's book the Politics of Mothering.

I do think we have to be cautious about believing that all choices are free. I don't think for a minute that the overwhelming majority of SAHPs being women is some sort of accident. It's just that when we take into account who is on the better career trajectory, who is capable of being the higher earner, if there are likely to be more children, influences from parents / friends / society: culturally, financially and socially it is women who are more likely to become the SAHP.

That doesn't mean that SAHPing is anti-feminist, but it does mean that the WOHP needs to recognise that the other person is facilitating their career often at some sacrifice of their own, and that the SAHP is still working. I've seen way too many men just believe that this is the natural way of things and that their wives "aren't working" when the reverse is true.

Ugh, this really pisses me off, what a knob! I'm a SAHM and a feminist too, and I would say to any idiot who dared to mansplain feminism that I decide what gives me self worth, nobody else - and certainly not a man who has got his feminism so back to front that he is actually sexist

Being a SAHM gives me self worth, I love it!

In India domestic work is often outsourced. It's still considered a woman's job to manage it though. Most domestic workers work around school hours and so you'll often find female professionals taking part time hours or salary cuts to ensure it all gets done appropriately. And they will often get the blame if it's not completed to the right standard.

I'm a Bad Feminist: I'm currently a SAHM, I changed my name when I got married, I shave, I wear high heels and makeup etc etc

But as pp have said, none of us make our choices in a vacuum, and I won't blame any woman for making a non-feminist choice that leads to a better outcome for them personally. And any man who looks askance at a woman's choices and suggests that they are a Bad Feminist can STFU to be honest

Why should anyone working full time be expected to do 50% of this if there is a stay at home person?

I agree to a certain extent. I have been a SAHM in the past and have had a maternity leave as well. I did more round the house than him because I was in the house more often. However my day was not planned around housework. If I went out for the day - which I often did - we split the chores when he got home. If I was I all day and had time around the children I did more.

When I work DH does far more housework than me.

Lass. that comment was about the OP's friend - he's married but doesn't have children and his wife works.

If he is not doing at least 50% of the work involved in running and maintaining a house and the people who live in it, he's not much of a feminist

Why should anyone working full time be expected to do 50% of this if there is a stay at home person?

You can't have it both ways- if being a "stay at home" is work why should the person who has been working out of the home be expected to pick up the sahm's share ?

Sorry, my last post was to Aspasia.

It's all about choice! And there's something very sinister about being told you have no self worth because you have no job Not all work is paid...:like being a stay at home parent!

I'm not sure what you mean?

My DH and I both work and he does (much) more house work and (a little more) child care than I do. When the kids were little though I only worked part time. There was no reason for this at all, DH found house work and child care far more rewarding than I did and I thrive at work and always have.

We now often discuss why we made this odd choice but have realised that we didn't really make any choice, we just did what was expected. We were very young when we had our first child which I think played a part in it.

I do really struggle with the idea that the working partner is responsible for 50% of running and maintaining the household (where there are school-age children).

If there are just two of them working FT, it should be the default. And I think it should be the starting point if they don't both work FT - both adults should be contributing equally to the household, which includes bringing in money, but being the only wage-earner I don't think is as much as 50% contribution to the labour and admin of keeping a house particularly if there are children. Though it's terribly convenient for many men who are the only one working to think it is. I do think if you're the one who is not in paid work, you presumably have more time in the house to do a larger share of the housework and childcare tasks, though.

Hum - depends on income. And what about the situation where the domestic crap is outsourced anyway?

It's automatically a shared enterprise surely? If the SAHP didn't SAH then the working partner would have to considerably change their work life - they might not be able to work at all.

Point taken!
But should then the non-working partner see the working one's job as a shared enterprise by eg having the boss round to dinner?

'I do really struggle with the idea that the working partner is responsible for 50% of running and maintaining the household (where there are school-age children). '

I don't think it's essential that the working partner actually does an equal amount of running and maintaining the household - practically it makes sense for a SAHP to do more. It's about the power dynamic and about a sense of teamwork. In my own experience and from talking to other women who have been SAHMs for a while, it's very easy for the working partner to start to treat the home like a hotel - to see themselves as having no responsibility whatsoever for the house and to treat their SAH partner like a skivvy. I've heard of horrendous situations where the working partner goes to bed with a sniffle but the SAH partner has had to literally crawl around the house, vomiting, because she doesn't ever get time off no matter how sick she is.

I do really struggle with the idea that the working partner is responsible for 50% of running and maintaining the household (where there are school-age children).
On the other hand, cleaning and household admin do my head in.

He said to me that actually, how can I call myself a feminist if I stay at home living out a dated social stereotype serving a man and having no career and therefore no self worth.

Have you asked him why he assumes self-worth is only available through a career? Why does he value upbringing children so little? Why does he assume you're serving a man more than yourself and your children? Who does the housework in his house?

I live alone, and my standards are not high, but there's still housework to be done, and I suffer if it isn't, as would anyone else if they lived here - someone has to do it, it's noticeable when it isn't done, so therefore it has value.

I assume he has no children, but if he were to do so, who would look after them? Would that work have no value for him?

If he is not doing at least 50% of the work involved in running and maintaining a house and the people who live in it, he's not much of a feminist. Of course we should have as much access to education, employment, promotion and money as men do - but feminism isn't only about that, and if men aren't doing the unpaid work outside of the office as well, then bollocks to them being feminist or even much of an ally.

And yes, you can be a SAHM and a feminist, as long as you thought about it, rather than unquestioningly accepted a traditional role. (Although doing that may later turn you into a feminist.)

Gotcha logan. Patriarchal pressure rather than the women making an unsisterly choice (which I unfairly read between the lines of your post).

I disagree that becoming a SAHM is always a choice. Although of course it is for many.

The idea that our self worth is dependant on our job is patriarchy and capitalism in a nutsack.

Ask him what he would do with the rest of his life if he became too disabled to work full time, and therefore had no self worth.

There are layers of things going on.

Firstly, don't ever believe a man who says he's a feminist. Male feminists may exist but I've never met one. My DH comes close to being one, but the fact is that he still has his male privilege and he still defaults to believing that his experience is the 'right' experience. When a man tries to tell you about feminism the only sensible reaction is to laugh in his face.

Secondly, feminism isn't about controlling women's lives. Men do that plenty, thanks. As long as it's lawful and you're not hurting anyone, you can do whatever you please. Feminism is not about policing women's choices, it's about understanding why they make those choices and removing the barriers that prevent them from having a genuine range of choices open to them.

Understanding the difficulties with SAHMing is not about 'right' and 'wrong.' It's about examining why, in a situation where a child has two parents, one of them ends up doing all the caring while the other ends up doing all the out-of-home work. In that situation, both parents lose out - one parent is cut off from being personally and financially independent, the other is cut off from being more involved in the day to day raising of their child. It would make far far more sense for society to acknowledge the fact that between the ages of 20 and 40 a large proportion of the population (both women and men) have children. It is a necessary part of keeping the population going and so should be factored in to the working world so that everyone has a chance to both work and look after children as much as suits them.

What actually happens is that having children is seen as an inconvenience brought about by women that interferes with the Real Work done, mainly, by men. So having children is 'accommodated' in a way that makes it clear to women that actually it's a nuisance and a burden. Hence many women are pushed in to SAHMing.

Because in our society paid work is Real and Important and unpaid caring is 'doing nothing,' SAHMs suffer the automatic penalty of becoming less valued by society. Not only that, but she's put in a very precarious financial situation where she is dependent on her spouse and progressively loses value on the job market year on year.

Having children is treated by society as an inconvenience and the women who dedicate their time to raising children are treated as worthless. This is in spite of the fact that if women said 'fuck it,' fit in with the current working culture and just didn't bother having kids the species would come to an end. The future of the human race literally rides upon women giving birth. And yet, it's treated like an annoying hobby that men have to accommodate.

It's all fucked up. That's the issue with SAHMing. Being a SAHM is a choice, yes, but it's a choice made within a fucked up situation, a choice that could seriously disadvantage you, when it absolutely should not. In fact, raising the next generation is the epitome of valuable, surely? If no one did it, we'd be fucked.

I do think you can be a feminist and a SAHM - I also think men can have views on what a feminist is.
The concern that i have is that the SAHM and WOHF model i think causes issues for other women and to a degree reinforce the patriarchy

• the work place stays designed around a model where one person can work all hours/network at will/without worrying about childcare/housework etc- which increasingly makes it difficult for any other model to survive. I'm not sure if it is a capitalist concern but you are supporting someone to leave home early/come home late which makes it hard for someone in that workplace to do other things.

There was also a thread in which numerous posters agreed with the OP that it was important to teach daughters to "marry well" so they could become SAHPs in future, which doesn't strike me as giving them a very equal choice.

I've also heard boys my age state they'd never "let" their wives work "when" they have children in future

I think I'm both.

I am a stay at home Mum becuase I want to be, it was my choice not to return to my business until the dc are older.
I don't rely on dh for money, I've rental properties that provide me with an income.
I don't do all the house work etc, mine and dh relationship is as equal as it's always been.

Thing is in society women will be judged if they stay at home or go to work.