I am a feminist and a sahm

PS I changed my name, I was happy too! My maiden name was horrible. The link with the past is already lost too, because my name was my dad's not my mums, and my mum's name was her dad's not her mum's. If you want to keep a name do, if you want to lose it, do.

Country I've spotted the flaw straight away... a male friend.

Men are not the authority on feminism, just say his mansplaining aint needed!

Be happy in your 'role', if you like it, love it.

Very well put FArtniss

I agree FartnissEverbeans

I would recommend reading 'Liberating Motherhood' by Vanessa Olerenshaw (sp?).
As a feminist and SAHM it really fired me up.

The question shouldn't be 'why didn't you choose a more powerful role?' but 'why are the roles women choose so disempowering?'

I'd argue that being a SAHM can be a very important job, but it isn't valued as such, and a lot of that is because it's a role taken on mainly by women.

Feminism isn't about navigating patriarchal power structures - it's about identifying those structures and challenging them in order to level the playing field. If a woman thinks it will be beneficial to stay at home with her babies, then she should be able to do so without any loss of status.

I'm a radical feminist and I intend to be a SAHM in the next few years. Any model of feminism that doesn't take account of motherhood is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion. Your friend doesn't get it, although he clearly thinks he does.

No, you're right yolo that was poorly phrased. I meant the 'wifework' that we women are conditioned to do and to think about. I've just been reading about it on the other thread. The discussion is spot on.

ALittleBitOfButter

Thanks for your perspective - that's really interesting. The policy in Australia sounds a lot better than here! If you're able to pursue your intellectual interests while at home, then that's really cool. My problem is, I can't push myself to do anything unless there's a job/academic deadline looming over, so if I stayed at home I don't think I'd get anything "productive" done - even if I wanted to read papers or learn a language (struggling with this as we speak).

Also, you said:

but serenely goes about his life without being aware of what it's actually like being a woman. He doesn't 'notice' housework, doesn't forward plan housekeeping, is terrible at managing bills, thinking ahead about dinner etc.

I'm not sure any of this is to do with "being a woman", at least it shouldn't be in 21st century. In the nicest possible way, tell him to pull his finger out! I had a stern word with my boyfriend saying if he moves into my flat and turns it into his old flat (a complete dump, recycling hadn't been taken out in 9 months, never did washing up, couldn't sit on the toilet seat for fear of catching Ecoli etc) then he'd be straight out. (He was also in his overdraft despite being on the same salary as me, where I had savings. I showed him how to save money and now he has enough to go on a bunch of holidays). I now have a great domestic helper and we're a team - he does all washing and hoovering, I do the dusting/bathrooms, we split cooking and washing up (in fact he does more cooking because he likes it). You don't have to live with a lazy partner thinking "ah, he doesn't understand women's work". Housekeeping is NOT women's work anymore.

Sorry, to continue, children now in the bath...

A lot of people say that they need to go back to work for some intellectual stimulation. Again, I think this is dependent on the individual. I have found SAHM far more intellectually stimulating than work. A lot of my colleagues are Murdoch-reading and not critically educated, which is fine, day to day, I get along with them. But it hardly makes for stimulating conversations. Those I do have interesting conversations with...well we don't have time, or we're taken up talking about the union issues or whatever. Also, of course, being a teacher nowadays is horrifically stressful, albeit far more in the UK than Australia where you're further along the neoliberal continuum.

But I can listen to the radio (we have an excellent far left radio station here), I can read academic/political books from the library, I can read this excellent board on Mumsnet. I have time to ponder when I'm pushing the double pram, which I do several hours a day which I find relaxing (the babies also get time out) and also important for my exercise. SAHM can be unhealthy unless you're proactive. I do get quite bad social anxiety so this is one facet of the solitude being very enjoyable for me. I am also doing some writing and research relevant to my career, and am able to access subsidised childcare one day a week for this.

My partner's income is much lower than mine, probably about half. However because we are older we have a secure house, no mortgage, although we live in an area most people wouldn't even contemplate (due to prejudice). Gentrification means that our house is rising in value double what I earn, probably, annually. Due to my partner's income being below the poverty line we get tax credits. I have told my partner there is no financial benefit to me working: if I was, we'd need a second car, childcare costs, corporate clothes, takeaway, probably a mortgage because we would have moved to a better house rather than this ramshackly old place with a huge garden, holidays because we're stressed. We don't need any of that now, as I sew clothes, make all food from scratch, we grow a lot of our food etc etc. Again, this is specific to me and not something general.

So in summary so much of this 'choice' is specific to the individual, but the conditions need to be available. I would say that what's needed with a lot of the discussion here are more robust union conditions that actually support and allow for women's biology, particularly the 'tired' thing.

This has been an interesting and valuable discussion for me (lurker, also Spartacus). I'm a SAHM which I'm very happy with, but I also find I have to over-justify it to random people/friends. Which is problematic. I'm aware of the judging that goes on because it's quite unusual where I am, in Australia, where there are massive childcare subsidies.

There are a number of facets to this issue for me, which aren't relevant for all women.

For me, as an older mother with TTC issues, I wanted to be with my babies. I waited a long time for them. The younger one is only one (older is four), so still wants me with him. I didn't want to put them away somewhere so I could go to work. I know that is an unfair and unpleasant analogy but it's how I feel for myself. I completely understand that other women don't feel like that. Partly it is due to having no maternal bond with my own cold and emotionless mother (which caused PND). It was important to me to be able to be close to my babies all the time.

I do have a career. I am very highly educated and ended up in teaching. This has been fortunate for my choice to be a SAHM. I probably wouldn't have made the choice if I hadn't had such good conditions (and may have been unhappy being forced into using childcare). I get seven years family leave, and back to my previous level at the end. You can use it in one go, or use it in between children (i.e. you can go back between having children, as long as you don't use more than seven years in total). This is because of a historically strong union (which is probably in the process of weakening this condition due to government pressure) with a woman-dominated membership. Women's careers, the policy tries to aim, aren't disadvantaged if a woman chooses to take time out. Of course in reality they are, as most school leaders are men, inverse to the actual teaching population.

Another factor is that it's bloody tiring having babies and young children. If you have a bad sleeper your mind is all over the place. Should I really go to work where I am usually very sharp and precise, and fuddle and fumble around (even though everyone is so understanding...you have a baby, blah blah). It can make women look disengaged. I don't want that for myself. Having also read about the effects of menopause on behaviour here on Mumsnet our biology is really stacked against us. I can see possible menopause in a couple of the more irrational behaviours of older women at work, unfortunately. One has recently had a hysterectomy (something I shouldn't really have been told by a colleague) so I suspect I may be right there.

My partner is one of those men who probably thinks he's a feminist, or believes wholeheartedly in the patriarchy being damaging, but serenely goes about his life without being aware of what it's actually like being a woman. He doesn't 'notice' housework, doesn't forward plan housekeeping, is terrible at managing bills, thinking ahead about dinner etc. I knew that it would fall on me to do the bulk of housework when (if) I went back to work or chose to go back to work. I didn't want to constantly nag or enter into something that knowingly would cause me stress. This SAHM choice means I do all of the house management, although if I ask him to bring in or fold washing, or empty dishwasher, he does it immediately, of course. It's more that me being at home means I'm the manager. He also has a chronic condition (called a disability by some with it) which is managed by medication but triggered by stress. Our aim, or my aim, because it's my choice, is to have as low stress a family life as we can in these early years when screaming babies can make your blood pressure rise. Also I had an unhappy childhood with angry, disengaged, cold parents. I want to do things differently.

This may make me sound like a doormat, because I am quintessentially a 1950s housewife, but I'm quite happy with it. I do feel like I'm in control. I think having strong union conditions (the 7 year family leave) is absolutely crucial, and a lot of the women on here who talk about careers are in the private sector with insecure employment. I can't lose my job if I choose to do this. It's protected.

Baby is fractious now, will continue musing in a little while...

As do I; I'm not too old to go on that forum but never would.

Ah no, how come? I used to love TSR back in the good ol' days

Yolo my very loving and caring grandmother once shocked me with the pensive throwaway comment, 'if I could have my time again I'd have dogs not children' We had no idea she felt like that.

There's really no right way. But you're wise to think about it now if it might be a deal breaker for your DP.

Hmmm tricky.
I have a good friend who was 100% adamant no children, had one as a compromise with her partner who wanted kids then had a second as she loved the first so much. She still doesn't like other people's children though :)
I also have a friend who's child free by choice and has an amazing lifestyle that I'm very jealous of.
I had an unplanned pg and I'm glad I did as it meant I didn't need to decide anything.

@QuentinSummers thanks! I will do

That's the thing, I can't tell if me "warming" to the idea or just all the pressure taking it's toll. When I was single it was easy to say "I'm not having them". But now, it's the dilemma - I love my partner and would rather have kids with him than be single forever. While part of me likes watching OBEM and the idea of family days out in the park, I also love time to myself. It was more the fact that

a) I don't want to upset DP for life by not letting him fulfil his wish of having kids - I wouldn't mind having them more than he'd mind not having them. He's lovely and selfless and probably wouldn't break up with me over it or even complain, but I'd feel very guilty.
b) If it's a dealbreaking issue, I don't want to end up forever alone.
c) If I change my mind when I'm too old, what if I regret it?

Still trying to clear all my thoughts on this. Luckily I don't have to think about it for another good number of years!

'the point of life is to enjoy it and find meaning in what you choose'

Yes, exactly.

Also, I just realised Mumsnet may not be the best place to be saying this....I like this forum though, I'm too old to go on the StudentRoom!

As do I; I'm not too old to go on that forum but never would. This is much better (my favourite place to discuss feminism in fact).

I hope you don't feel pressured into having children if it isn't what you want!

Yolo, I do have an academic based job. It's still just a job to me at the end of the day.

Do not feel pressured into having kids! Lots of women do not want kids and have all manner of other things they would rather spend their time on.

And many people think they will want kids and then change their minds, or think they won't want them and change their minds. It's all normal and there is no one right way.

yolo awesome username! We have plenty of chats on here about the assumptions made if you are childless by choice. Stick around

Quoting two different posters here but this is so true

"The other assumption is that SAHMs are somehow 'out' of society and people going to a paid job are somehow 'in', as if you aren't engaged with the outside world if you don't get paid.

I think that stems from paid employment being taxable hence "contributing to society", whereas unpaid work doesn't generate any taxes.

Hence if you go out to work and pay a childminder the same amount (for example), you break even, but the government gets 2 sets of taxes. Probably why they prefer it..."

So so true. Worth repeating.

Of course one can be a feminist and a sahm!

As others have said, we live within the constraints of the society around us. For a long time the childcare would have been twice what I could have earned. I am a single parent too so I just couldn't make it work. I admire people who do make it work but I would have destroyed our quality of life at the time to 'prove' to argumentative strangers that I was a feminist. I know I'm a feminist. I am a feminist precisely because I was cornered in to that position.

Amazed that there are people who don't understand that it's not just what you do that makes you a feminist but what you'd prefer to do. Surely the motivation for any 'movement' is desire for a better future. If we were all in a position to easily 'prove' that we were feminists by living equal lives that reflected our 'isms' then there'd be no need for change. The fact that so many of us find ourselves recognising that we are cornered, dependent, weighing up childcare/earnings without the choice proves that we are

There's nothing odd about this. I don't feel I'll want children though know that could change in future. It's perfectly normal to want or not want children.

I know you're absolutely right - there's just an insane amount of pressure. To be quite honest, I'm still not sure it's really my decision - my family are always saying "we want grandchildren", I hear comments that child-free people are "unfulfilled" and "don't understand" and are "missing out", as well as the classic "you're young, you'll change your mind!". Even my grandma says "well, that's the point of life". To continuously carry on the cycle of humanity? To me, the point of life is to enjoy it and find meaning in what you choose....It's really frustrating, and I used to get all this when I tried to argue being child-free from any side, my arguments ranging from "the world is overpopulated" to "I just don't want them, because I want to do other things in life".

I'm not sure if coming round to the idea is entirely me, or a fear that it would be a dealbreaker between me and DP, fear of regret when I'm retired, and just good old peer-pressure and judgement of a woman who doesn't want to pursue motherhood. But then as you said, we're judged for whatever we do eh!

Also, I just realised Mumsnet may not be the best place to be saying this....I like this forum though, I'm too old to go on the StudentRoom!

I've seen it as quite aspirational to build a career - to become an expert in your field, give presentations on it, to know everything about it, to build up a skill e.t.c.

I do as well. So did/does my mum - she's got a great career, has spoken at conferences and is also a fantastic mother.

I might be an oddball because up until I met DP, I was convinced I never wanted kids.

There's nothing odd about this. I don't feel I'll want children though know that could change in future. It's perfectly normal to want or not want children.

I guess - there's a lot of boring mindless jobs out there, and I couldn't think of anything worse than having to do some of them for life. I worked in retail/admin/telesales while at uni and hated all of them. I loved studying so want pursue that further, and to have a job that's interesting and brain-stretching. Those are hard to find - seeing as companies want to profit, and the most productivity from 1 person is when they know how to do 1 task extremely well and do that over and over again. Or, the job is interesting, but in an "immoral" industry. I believe my dream job is out there though! My current one is just enabling me to save up and go travelling.

I've seen it as quite aspirational to build a career - to become an expert in your field, give presentations on it, to know everything about it, to build up a skill e.t.c.

But I can understand that everyone is different - some of my cousins just wanted to be mums and did that at 21 and SAH, as that's what makes them happy. I might be an oddball because up until I met DP, I was convinced I never wanted kids.

Much of it is also about how people view earning on a personal level.

I refer to work as keeping the wolves from the door. It's not who I am, and even though my kids are grown up, I'd rather be with them, or my parents or siblings than at work. Work is just the thing I do to stop any of us ending up lying on cardboard in the city centre.

That sounds an excellent company YoloSwaggins. Given your partner would love to be a stay at home dad in the future, he should be. Increasing numbers of fathers are doing it, or taking on the bulk of the parenting. Anecdotally I see quite a few men out with pushchairs in the park, picking up children from school when I walk past primary schools etc, near me. I see far more women of course, but I've noticed more men doing it and parents have commented on it too. It's becoming less "unusual" (though not usual enough) and if it works for you as it sounds like it will do then hopefully you can disregard the family questions and help them see it's because it's what's best for your family!