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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What does female sexuality tell us about evolution and pre-historic sex?

115 replies

Ava5 · 08/05/2017 16:37

The fact that it's so complex and responsive to patient, fear-free stimulation and so easily hurt by the wrong kind of handling? Women's bodies can be played like violins by a skilled partner: we have clits, we're sexual from head to toe if properly caressed and there're the multiple orgasms. All this seems like a total evolutionary waste if Homo Sapiens have always primarily engaged in the rapey patriarchal model of sex.

Is it all just a carry-over from our bonobo DNA? Is it supposed to facilitate pair bonding (maybe the 2nd trimester horniness is part of this)? It also all seems really excessive if it was all just intended for making babies. Just musing here.

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 10/05/2017 20:48

I completely agree somedyke ithe is preposterous to think that girls and women wouldn't have worked flint or whittled sticks. I think in a lot of hunter-gatherer and nomadic tribes to this day the women build the huts which can invlove using stakes, etc.

There is historical sexist bias in anthropology that is difficult for people to shake. I remember in a fairly recent Dr Alice Roberts documentary she was shown how to work flint. She commented how natural/instinctive it felt in her hands, then weirdly corrected herself to suggest it would have been the men making stone tools.. Confused

OlennasWimple · 10/05/2017 20:37

Just marking my place on this fascinating discussion....

SylviaPoe · 10/05/2017 20:33

I agree with someDyke's posts on this thread.

SomeDyke · 10/05/2017 20:26

"Somehow wielding weapons is considered men's work everywhere in the world, though."

Because until very recently, it was assumed that men would have wielded weapons/fought/hunted the mighty mammoth, because that was what men were for. Except, in hunter gatherer societies AFAIK, women do wield weapons in that they use bows to hunt small game (a bow is certainly a weapon, or can be used as such), women use digging sticks to dig up tubers (hard work, and a considerable resource). Big pointy sticks are certainly a weapon! They use knives and rocks and heavy stuff to cut and process plants and nuts. They can certainly use knives to butcher flesh. And so on and so on. And all of those things (bows, big pointy sticks, knives, rocks) are certainly capable of being used as fairly efficient weapons.

I bet that even if early women were restricted to small game and gathering because of having to carry and care for babies and small children, I bet that if a predator had threatened them and their kids, they would certainly have had the tools to use as weapons (bows, rocks, big pointy sticks), and the motivation to use them to defend them and theirs!

I guess my point really is that women must have done all these things, because they'd have not got far in terms of protecting the young and finding enough food for everyone if they'd had to rely on males to do all the defending! Neither of us, males or females, has natural weapons any more, and we both have the same brains and the same smarts and the same clever hands. It was only with the rise of patriarchy that they took the tools and weapons out of female hands and said, you can't do this, that's a man thing. So now when scientists look back, until recently they just didn't assume women did any of that stuff. When they looked at contemporary societies they either didn't ask the right questions, or ignored what they actually saw, because they assumed they knew the answer.

Hence a whole range of museum displays where you only ever seem to see males producing stone tools, or throwing spears. And a fairly recent New Scientist illustration they should have been thoroughly ashamed of where the only ancient female appeared to be messing with her hair, whilst the men did everything else.

I don't believe it. Females certainly, even if tasks were divided by sex, would have needed to use various stone scrapers, knives etc. Given how often stone tools need retouching, would it have been efficient or feasible if she'd have to wait for man the tool-maker to come and sharpen her favourite kitchen knife when he got back from the hunt? Or would she have just done it herself?

And then I found this contemporary account:
Woman the Toolmaker: Hideworking and Stone Tool Use in Konso, Ethiopia (Archaeological Methods & Practice) Hardcover – 12 Apr 2016

Which says:
"Woman the Toolmaker portrays the remarkable lives of a group of Konso hide workers from southern Ethiopia who may be the last people in the world to make and use flaked stone tools on a regular basis. Unlike the “Man the Toolmaker” stereotype, virtually all of the Konso hide workers are women who as young girls learn flintknapping skills from their mothers or other female relatives. The complete life cycle of making and using flaked stone artifacts is documented in this ethnoarchaeological portrait of Konso women scraping hides to produce soft leather products for bedding, bags, drums, and even ritual clothing. The hide workers use quartz, quartz crystal, chalcedony, and chert collected from dry river beds, eroding hillsides, and abandoned hideworker households to manufacture scrapers from cores by the direct percussion and bipolar techniques. Using a gum-like resin obtained from local trees, the scrapers are secured in the open haft of a wooden handle. "

And a recent paper that references this says:
" Archaeologists continue to describe Stone Age women as home bound and their lithic technologies as unskilled, expedient, and of low quality. However, today a group of Konso women make, use, and discard flaked stone tools to process hides, offering us an alternative to the man-the-toolmaker model and redefining Western “naturalized” gender roles.........In our Western-centric reconstructions of the past, women bear children while men hunt, butcher, explore, lead rituals, and produce technology—including stone tools."
This was in 2010, written by a female anthropologist. It shows women doing the whole thing, from quarrying the raw material, heat-treating it (seen as cooking hence suitably female), producing and using the tools. O, and seems early reports of women using stone tools were there, just that since at the time the victorian gents were thinking of stone as primitive and low-tech (compared, say, to metal), so suitably female as well at that time. Chaps use iron, only feeble ladies have to use primitive stone. Then when we realised that stone tools weren't that simple, suddenly it became MAN the stone tool maker and skilled flint-knapper again...............

FellOutOfBed2wice · 10/05/2017 19:31

Just wanted to say that I can contribute nothing to this, but I'm finding it fascinating. Thanks all!

QuentinSummers · 10/05/2017 19:17

We have hidden ovulation. If women didn't want to have sex then a lot of them wouldn't have sex, assuming the majority of men historically were like men now and didn't want to force them.
Something that would make a woman want sex would increase the chances of pregnancy and therefore increase the chance of that woman passing on her DNA. Enter the female orgasm.

I've linked this before but it's interesting
discovermagazine.com/1993/sep/sexandthefemalea262

TeiTetua · 10/05/2017 19:01

You can say "weedy" but all of human skill is in "either our imposing brains and social organisation make up for our lack of teeth, claws, roars and muscles". Even one person armed with a spear or a club is dangerous, let alone a whole gang with weapons and the ability to make complex plans and communicate by voice. No wonder we've swept the world.

Somehow wielding weapons is considered men's work everywhere in the world, though. Even if that doesn't absolutely have to be true.

SomeDyke · 10/05/2017 17:09

"It is not at all obvious to me that any kind of society needs more males than females. "
The sex (birth) ratio is apparently the oldest argument in evolutionary biology!
The male humans being protecting argument seems spurious to me. After all, unlike many others primates, humans are quite weedy. Male humans don't have the size and snazzy hair-style of silverback gorillas. They don't have the surprising blue eyelids and monstrous canines of baboons, or the large canines of even male chimps. Male humans, in their untoothy, relatively unfurry, declawed nakedness seem naturally very unsuited to repel anything! Then we have the relatively small size difference between male and female humans compared to other apes. Given the SIZE of human babies, and their inability to grasp fur and hang on like monkeys and apes, they seem uniquely vulnerable as well. If human females were so weedy, they couldn't carry a baby that can't hang on for itself.

So, given the naturally unprepared state of human males (no big teeth, no scary erectile mane or imposing roar, or anything much frankly), and the fact that human females already have to carry baby, I think that even the weak and feeble human females could organize themselves in some safer shelter, and wield a stick to defend themselves if required. Else we'd have all died out as we waited for primitive man to finally work out how to defend us all now his imposing canines seem to have disappeared, whilst the laydees cowered in his shadow...............

The mighty hunter and protector myth seems a bit feeble once you realise how feeble all humans are compared to our ape cousins. So either our imposing brains and social organisation make up for our lack of teeth, claws, roars and muscles for all humans, or they don't! In which case, tool use, smarts, and social organisation better work for human females looking after the sprogs as well as for the mighty hunter who has buggered-off trying to run down a gazelle yet again..............

runloganrun101 · 10/05/2017 11:35

Most societies prior to the rise of Biblical religions were female centric. Women can't have bastards or have their maternity questioned, and so wealth was often passed down the female line and women often had multiple husbands. Can see this in Indian, African, and Middle-Eastern history.

Elendon · 10/05/2017 09:03

Also by the time of the Roman invasion, the Celts were in the ascendancy and they had an egalitarian system, rather than the Roman patriarchal system, their history is left to us not in words but in the burials and the craft. The Romans are not pre history, and who could forget that famous misogynist, Suetonius.

SylviaPoe · 09/05/2017 21:07

At the time of the Roman Invasion, the Britons had been agriculturalists for thousands of years, not hunters.

It is not at all obvious to me that any kind of society needs more males than females.

Also, we're talking here about the time of Boudicca!

QuietCorday · 09/05/2017 19:26

I always think there's something in the Roman reports of Britons originally engaging in polyandry.

This seems to make a lot of sense to me, especially when you consider the group work involved in hunting etc, and the need to protect pregnant/nursing females and their young. It just seems obvious that you would need more adult males than adult females, which then, of course, requires sexual access is either shared or prohibited for some males.

And it's not too much of a leap to then see how the origins of the patriarchy may have come to pass, depending on how a group dealt with that problem.

Elendon · 09/05/2017 19:09

It's almost as if women were stupid to have sex with men in order to procreate because it mean't their obvious death (or something). Women did understand cycles and babies were gestated for less time and smaller. Biologically, we, male and female humans are mammals. In the main, we will reproduce, but there will be anomalies.

Elendon · 09/05/2017 19:02

It's like,you know, women didn't have brains. And it was all the men. History, written that is, tells us very little about women's achievements.

SomeDyke · 09/05/2017 18:59

I was thinking about this, and watching our cat. Sexual from head to toe isn't quite sex, we are sensual from head to toe, and kissing related (possibly) to mother to baby food passing. Except chimps kiss as well as I recall, so seems general touching/grooming/pleasurable touching, and even sexual stimulation and orgasm for females, I think that is common amongst primates (I remember reading a paper about female orgasm amongst primates, and just got rather perturbed at what some experimenters got up to! Ditto those who went for sexual stimulation of female mice).

Anyway, look at a cat on cat mint. Obviously stimulates something sexual, the whole squat on the cat-nip toy and whisk your tail to the side shows that. Except is female kitty 'orgasm' nice (penile spines I think, stimulates ovulation AND kitties can have multiple fathers in one litter so some sperm competition going on there!).

Anyway, I think it was Dr Tatianas Sex Advice to all creation:
www.drtatiana.com/
that really engaged me.

Anyway, I think I need to read this book as well:
The Case of the Female Orgasm: Bias in the Science of Evolution
By Elisabeth Anne Lloyd

To get back to the original question -- humans are complicated. We have all the basic bits and bobs and responses that we share with chimps and bonobos and other mammals and so on. But we have the things that seem uniquely human, like rapey patriarchal sex and rape itself? I blame it on our big brains and on males, where you put the same blame for the patriarchy. Ditto the fact that female sexuality (and indeed the female orgasm and how females are supposed to respond) is seen as some great puzzle. That enjoying sex for females went from natural, to unnatural, to natural again, that we worried about not just about orgasm but the 'wrong' type. That it is only very recently that the full anatomy of the clitoris has been made publicaly and engagingly available:
www.sophiawallace.com/clitrodeo
Big brains equals more complicated culture equals male opportunity to think up the patriarchy. And mess up sexuality (as well as a whole load of other stuff!). Pre-patriarchal culture, I don't know what sex would have been like then, perhaps we would have been more like bonobos (penile fencing anyone? Smile)...................

SylviaPoe · 09/05/2017 18:19

Ava, yes, I agree that many people do not understanding in a scientific sense all the details of how reproduction works, but they all understand there is some link between PIV and pregnancy.

While I'm not sure how I feel about any of this, basically, having an orgasm is just a pleasant feeling caused mainly by stimulation of the genitals leading to some kind of spasm. I'm not sure how much it really has to do with people enjoying physical contact more generally or romantic partnerships.

Elendon · 09/05/2017 17:01

Abortion methods are as old as pre history itself. Nor did it actually harm women and they were effective. This happened pre religion.

Multiple organisms did not produce labour unless you believe in aliens. Swallowing sperm doesn't make you have your baby earlier but having sex post water's breaking might just result in the death of the baby (by introducing infection).

Ava5 · 09/05/2017 15:37

Also, considering all the really silly birth control myths that people have bought into over time (and still do thanks to religious nuts in the USA), the exact way reproduction works seems to have eluded all kinds of people everywhere.

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VoidoidDash · 09/05/2017 15:31

There are some suggestions that multipul organisms can induce labour. May have been a 'safety mechanism' in that respect?

Ava5 · 09/05/2017 15:29

Please let's not drag race into this. I got an anthropological detail monumentally wrong - sorry. Skin colour didn't enter my my mind. They were a stone age culture isolated from the world - they might've communicated with aliens for all we know.

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Ava5 · 09/05/2017 15:22

"This is untrue. There's no evidence of hunter gatherers not knowing there was a link between PIV and pregnancy. The Aboriginal claim from 1920s anthropologists was biased and later shown to be incorrect."

Thanks for pointing this out. This is such a murky field.

I guess what's more believable is that men didn't much care about parentage back in the days when the children were raised communally in a tribe and there was no property to pass on.

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Xenophile · 09/05/2017 15:22

Several pre-historic and stone age cultures had no idea that PIV produced them. The Australian Aboriginals were one of those.

This is categorically untrue. The belief is based on some seriously racist findings from a genocidal government study. Given what we know various Australian Aboriginal groups knew about various things, the suggestion that they didn't work out that PIV might equal babies is laughable. And racist.

Ava5 · 09/05/2017 15:15

"Or maybe I'm just not very musical.............."

I guess not Grin

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GuardianLions · 09/05/2017 15:12

Also the fact that human males have relatively large testicles suggests that human females would mate with more than one male during ovulation (larger testicles = more sperm to drive out the competition). Gorillas in contrast have small testicles because females only mate with the dominant male - so there is no competition for the sperm.

SylviaPoe · 09/05/2017 14:53

I think the realisation of how human babies are made is crucial here. Several pre-historic and stone age cultures had no idea that PIV produced them. The Australian Aboriginals were one of those.

This is untrue. There's no evidence of hunter gatherers not knowing there was a link between PIV and pregnancy. The Aboriginal claim from 1920s anthropologists was biased and later shown to be incorrect.