Male plastic surgeons "correcting" the female body.

sleepy I always channel Caitlin Moran and think "what are the men doing?" In these situations.
Are the men getting genital and other piercings? Yes
Are the men getting droopy balls surgically altered? No
Are the men spending hundreds of pounds on cosmetics? No
Therefore the fact women are doing these things indicates a patriarchal influence on women as a whole, but not in the case of every individual woman, e.g. the woman who has labiaplasty for medical reasons.
Caitlyn Moran is a good introduction to feminism I think actually.

I definitely get pubes at the back of my throat if boyfriendypartnerperson doesn't trim them.

Never had a sexual encounter with a woman to compare.

sleepy, again, not sure what you having bpd has to do with this thread. I actually also have bpd so if you were trying to make you feel like people shouldn't question anything you say, then you picked the wrong person.

I have a double-tongue piercing, my partner says it doesn't feel any different orally, but the hype around it definitely implies it does for a lot of men... I do wonder if they were originally made for that reason though, or whether men simply took ownership of the piercing being 'for them'?

As for men getting piercings that please women... I've never slept with anyone with a PA, but I have wondered if they are more of a symbol (of pain tolerance, strength, daring?) than done for sexual gratification of their sex partners.

I wish there were a like button on this site, sometimes I have no way to respond to a message other than agreeing, but think 'I agree' looks a bit weak. Again, caring too much!

As regards male plastic surgeons.......I seem to recall an earlier post had a female surgeon doing reconstructive work, whilst the male surgeons are doing the 'cosmetic' stuff as regards female genitalia. We have the functional stuff -- perhaps because a female plastic surgeon is more likely to have a better idea as regards what childbirth, for example, might do to a females genitalia and the quality of her sexual experiences afterward. Whereas the males doing the aesthetic stuff, which has more to do with what she thinks she looks like, and what she thinks her male partner likes/prefers. Also, I suspect, that the aesthetic stuff is probably a lot more profitable, in terms of private practice, whereas repairing anal fistulas on the NHS, not so much....................

As regards tats and piercings -- I have to comment on piercing the labia (looks? Enables someone to be laced up?), and piercing the clitoral hood (which does apparently increase sensation for the female, but if you're unlucky, makes things too sensitive, or can even damage the clitoris), and things like tongue piercing which supposedly increase sensation for the male when she is performing oral sex. I'm not totally sure what a Prince Albert does for women, my main experience is via gay men and piercings. But let's face it, I can't really think of a piercing for men whose main aim is to increase stimulation of the clitoris. Does a male pierced tongue work for women?? I guess it would...............

Lips, noses, ear and tragus piercings (I just have nostril, multiple lobe and tragus piercings, and one eyebrow. I had a lip piercing but it never healed properly, so I took it out.) -- those aren't for sexual sensation, and are decorative. But as regards piercings with sexual purposes, I think women are possibly getting a raw deal there! Although gay men seem to like them...........

*should also say patriarchy doesn't impact upon women within mainstream society equally in the same way either

**I'm not trying to portray patriarchal influence as a carte blanche or irreducibly complex system either nor separating out the example of those potential gamers/surgeons as distinct black and white groups either

I think that the patriarchy doesn't uniformly affect women equally across sub-cultures or alternative enclaves of mainstream society. I think I would also want to investigate types of possible patriarchal influences within those sub-cultures. So in gaming, a traditionally male-dominated area, I'm sure there are plenty of women that enjoy it because they just happen to like gaming as a normalised hobby, women that game but then perform a heteronormative titillating role within it (e.g. women on twitch that monopolise their fans' attraction for them/highly sexualised cosplayers) and then women that perhaps never sought to get into it as that's a "man's hobby".

In terms of female cosmetic surgeons, there isn't anything intrinsic about being female that would mean a woman wouldn't be to be a surgeon. But as a feminist (and also a HCP), I would want to look to the impact of notions of surgery as an old boy's club, how potential childrearing would alter a medic's career path and as you say what the perceptions and rates of particular procedures would be between male and female surgeons (this list isn't exhaustive). I also think that just because that surgeon is female that doesn't mean they have a inherent feminist view of cosmetic surgery (or any other aspect of their life, with or without purple or blonde hair).

I'm very new to feminist analysis, so sorry if I'm sounding very ignorant - probably because I am!

*sorry, I know you just said 'all because of men' wasn't what you are trying to say, missed that message before I sent mine!

But then why do loads of women pierce holes through their lips and noses and get tattoos? Is that because of pressure from men, or is it because they think it looks pretty cool themselves? There are a lot of cosmetic things that don't match with the idea that it's all down to a patriarchal influence...

I'm not anti-feminist btw, patriarchy is a fact, I'm just not sold that if a woman alters her body in an unneccessary way it must be because of men.

Surgery is a male-dominated area, so it makes sense there would be more male plastic surgeons. The way surgery is targeted more towards women is a definite issue though, but perhaps if the ratio of m/f surgeons evened out, we would see more female cosmetic surgeons? Or, do you think women would not wish to enter that sphere as much as men? That's a fair point. The dynamic is definitely askew.

I hear that Sleepy and so for you, because you are conscious of the decisions you are making and the reasoning behind it then it's not down to pressure, it's because purple is your favourite colour. Perhaps some women with purple hair would be making an ideological statement against the patriarchy by non-confirming.

My point isn't that every single decision a woman makes is because "yeah patriarchy" but when there are trends across women when viewed as a class then that's when the feminist analysis occurs. Many of the schemes that seek to help women and girls achieve their potential (STEM as a prime example) seek to rectify unconscious decisions, forced hands and pressures that feminism claim as being inherent within the patriarchy. I conform to a particular beauty standard that I feel looks nice. Under a feminist analysis, viewing women as a class, my individual behaviour as contributing to perceptions of women as that class is perhaps problematic.

regrouted yes, there could be. But I dye my own hair purple because it's my favourite colour. It's just not all due to pressures, that was the only point I was making. There are people who dye their hair a different colour every week, to colours that are not generally thought flattering- is that patriarchy?

Of course there are certainly a lot of women who dye their hair, say blonde because they hear men prefer them, or get highlights because of glossy magazines etc. But there are some things that don't seem to fit that idea.

I admit it was my emotions that got in the way, sorry to this thread. Genuinely.

I only meant to suggest that not all women think certain things about their body because of patriarchy. Sometimes you just don't like certain things.

Surely making choices (or whether you have enough agency to make a choice or not) is not separate from other pressures, the patriarchy being one framework of analysis.

I've just got home from having my hair highlighted; do I just like how that looks within "my natural self"?. Or could there possibly be reasons to why I think being blonder looks better and why looking better is important to me? Let alone permanently altering myself surgical for "better" looking genitals.

seoul hard when you have borderline personality disorder, it gets in the way sometimes, OK? Yes, we can move on.

I'm also not the only one who shared personal reasons for why they did a certain things and got shot down for it, namely someone else who got told she shouldn't wear certain clothing, when she said discomfort was a reason for getting labia surgery.

You may need to get over caring so much about what people think of you.

Can we move on?

There was no need to be rude though. I shared a personal story about why I myself shaved, then you said you called BS on reasons I stated, so I took offence yes. Maybe I was wrong, but I certainly wasn't trying to make it all about me, and I was never rude to you at all so why do you feel the need to be that way with me? It was a misunderstanding, that's all.

Just bored of talking about you, you personally, when it's not what the thread is about or what anyone else is talking about.

Maybe I am just too sensitive, who knows?! Maybe you should read your comment after mine and see why I may have interpreted it the way I did. Sorry

That's not what I am saying. It just implied I was lying that was all. That I was talking BS when I was just sharing my own experience.. that's why I took it personally. How can you not see that?

OK, sleepy, everything is about you and your totally cool and legit reasons for shaving your pubes and deep throating at every available opportunity and whatever other boring shite you want to talk about.

The whole thread is not just about you, you know. It's about general trends.

There most definitely is patriarchy, never going to deny that.

And Quentin, no doubt in less than 10 posts, someone will pop up saying 'no but I know a guy who DID have droopy ball surgery and my husband waxes his butthole so PROOF!!! No patriarchy!'

Deep fucking sigh.

seoul because your comment about 'calling BS' and 'pathetic excuses' and 'sheep' came straight after I declared I had gotten pubes in my mouth from my partner. So your 'speaking generally' about pubes-in-mouth being bullocks and women lying about it because they don't want to admit their sheep... seems to include me, does it not?

If you said 'I've done XYZ before' and I replied with 'XYZ is bollocks, I'm calling BS, it always amazes me the amount of people who claim XYZ' can you not see how that would imply you are lying?