XX people having their own gaming tournament? This will not do!

"If transwomen are so keen on their opportunity to shine, they could always organise a transwomen gaming contest all of their own..."

Wehey, you'll have to remember that one when the next all male golf club come under the cosh.

"If golfwomen are so keen on their opportunity to shine, they could always organise a golfwomen gaming contest all of their own..."

Vestal that's a very interesting point.

So Transmen, who still have "female" on their ID would be fine, but I can only assume transmen would rather kill themselves than be included in a "women only" event, because this would trigger their dysphoria.
They would not want women to include them.

No event should be for cis women only

Eh, I'd be okay with including transmen (you know, those "men" who have XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs)

But that'd not spare them the anger of transwacktivists. Because it is not about including trans. It is about including males.

No event should be for cis women only
That's where you lose me. It's not a question being cis.

1. There are biological women.

1. There are people who identify as being transgender and just get on with it. Again zero issues here
2. There are people who identify as being transgender and think they have the right to define what it is to be a woman because "I say I'm a woman and I like wearing dresses so you hitches better let me into all your female spaces because I'm going to kick off if you dont".

Let's guess which category of people seem to have the biggest mouth and the least to complain about! Oh yes, the last group.

If being classed as a trans woman was enough of a priority on their agenda they'd have proof, transition, get legal status etc. But bottom line is the people in the situation above don't want that. They just want their own way all the time and cry if challenged.

There is also a thread on reddit asktrans, too.

You are right, OlennasWimple. They seem to forget all of the abuse they face when demanding unfettered use of women's spaces. Aren't the organisers trying to keep the MTT safe too?

Although I doubt many if these MTT ever leave their bedrooms.

Sadly, I think he will go away and get everyone to re-write their policy to include men.

I actually came here looking for constructive dialogue to take back to the League organizers and am a bit shocked at the hostility. I didn't have anything to do with the initial decision or our League operations but since I have many LBGT friends and even family and care about the topic I thought I'd open dialogue and explain the background, given no one I work with actually think like the article is trying to portray the situation.

Yeah, he thought he could have a reasonable dialogue. Instead of being called transphobic and "degrading, invalidating and offensive".

I know, Datun

To be fair to these organisers (and others trying to set up similar international events), I don't know what they could reasonably do except ask for ID that demonstrates that someone is deemed by the law in the country issuing the ID to be female.

This is another reason why self-identification is a terrible idea - it raises expectations that everyone will fall into line with the "I am because I say I am" approach, when patently that is not going to happen in all circumstances.

OlennasWimple

That Reddit link is infuriating. The organisers bending over backwards to appear inclusive, whilst definitely wanting to keep a female only tournament.

I don't know whether they truly want to keep transwomen out, or whether they think that the few who are legal will make little difference.

But they are being tied up in knots arguing over something that is in entirely legitimate under the current rules. Being forced to deal with a cultural expectation that has no basis in law.

When the law is completely wrong.

The basis for excluding transwomen should be because they are men not because they're not legally women.

The reasons for wanting a woman only space is because men take over and become sexist. It doesn't bloody matter how they identify, they will still do that.

Exaxtly bob. Here we are pretty used to the nonsensical arguments employed to make people think that sex doesn't exist.

I do hope that eventually it's not just feminists who see through all this. That women everywhere will have a sense of unity.

This is an interesting quote "There is no single form of verification that is wholly inclusive, so verification shouldn't be required. Why should we have to justify ourselves to you?". In other words - women are not allowed to have women only events.

One of the head honchos involved in the tournament is being pretty active on social media right now - eg reddit and he is clear that ID was requested from all participants, not just the team in question.

so it basically comes down to the "I am a woman because I say I am, even though I don't mean any objective criteria to prove to you that I am a woman" argument. Which is completely undermined by the "transwomen face more persecution and violence than women" argument, because surely most transwomen would be arguing for some gate-keeping to these protected spaces that allows them in but keeps out the men who wish them harm....?

And LOL at "the healthcare community is on board". My friend is head over sexual health at Barts.

They do NOT refer to "men" coming in for cervical swabs, nor do they refer to "women" having their testes examined. This is simply not true. They may if necessary refer to a transman or transwomen to make all communications abundantly clear.

A Transman may need a cervical smears, yes. Never in a million years will a man need one.

Its all very clever. Even if the organiser's could stomach it, and adverse it as a tournament for 'cis women', they would be attacked. Making something exclusive for 'cis' is akin to making it exclusively for white, middle-class, beautiful women.

Without do anything to mtt, women are now the oppressors.

RogueBiscuit

They will be referring to transmen.

OlennasWimple

In terms of verifying whether you are of age, I agree.

In terms of checking whether you are a woman or not, it's only an issue because of transactivism. And it's a lose/lose.

To preserve women's spaces, organisers are going to have to do this. And it will be used as a massive stick.

We've ready had posters on MN saying what next, are you going to to ask everyone for their ID?!

The fact that there is gatekeeping going on will be seen as discriminatory, despite it being for everyone.

The goalposts will be moved. I guarantee it.

Fuck outta here. I'm a student nurse. The healthcare community is on board, so don't give me the genetics argument. Some of my female patients need to have their prostates examined. Some of my male patients need pap smears. Get over it

The thought of men going to have a smear test makes me want to puke. They don't have a cervix ffs.

To be fair, however, the organizers were pretty silly not to require all participants to provide ID during registration to demonstrate their eligibility. If it were for junior gamers, say under 16, participants would presumably have been required to verify their age.

Something for the organizers to take on board for next year.

Another comment. When will folk realise what irrational bullying cultush ideology is being promted by many transactivists/allies?

"You're definitely obsessed over these points. If you say 'I will not date a trans woman.' Guess what, that's transphobic. That's not rape culture, that's you being shitty. If you say "I would date a trans woman, but not one with a penis' —I question why you're reducing someone to just their genitalia, but sure. That's fine.

However, just referencing a refusal to date trans woman as a whole (with no knowledge of said genitalia, looks, etc) — that is definitely transphobic. And that's the point most make in that discussion."

No event should be for cis women only

And it is this line which is turning women onto feminism everywhere.

People who couldn't have cared less, live and let live, are suddenly having an eh? moment.

Ok, so reading the comments- how are we supposed to find a common ground on this sort of thinking - where do we meet to try and compromise or please everyone?

"If Ronda Rousey and Jim Parsons got in a fight, who do you think would have the physical advantage? Your views about gender are archaic, misinformed and steeped in stereotyping. Cass is 100% correct. Trans women are women and should be treated exactly the same as cis women. If you don't want to be the enemy then maybe don't be a shitty TERF? A lot of your comments on this thread have been aggressive and discriminatory against trans women so maybe fuck off with your high and mighty "accept others opinions" bullshit.

Bianca, while I appreciate your respectful tone, I also feel it is misguided and takes away a trans woman's individual experiences. No event should be for cis women only. Either it should be for all women or no women. Take your pick. Trans women are just as much women as cis women are."

And this from someone called Josiah - so presumably male (maybe not these days) - thanks for telling us how it is.

"The legal process has not become just a minor detail, it's becoming irrelevant."

Yes, this sort of tournament is perfectly legal, yet the social pressure and bad publicly make it so difficult to happen.

"It's extremely upsetting and I wish we could be treated like normal people"
Uh... You are being treated as a normal person. A male. In a wig and lipstick. It's fine, you want to look that way, great. You're still male.

I'm glad there are sensible groups out there who realise female only means female only and by default that excludes TIMs.

It reminds me of a group I'm in called " Sisterhood". The admin posted another reminder that this means No Males Allowed. I couldn't resist but post "Are transwomen allowed?" And they replied sensibly. They allow transwomen with careful consideration, if they can prove such and such (can't recall exactly) but I did think OK the blind acceptance that I am a woman simply by saying so is not prolific everywhere.

I CBA to read all the comments but the top comment BTL was heartening, women are discouraged from esport and if you grew up male you wouldn't have been discouraged so you have an advantage and the group is designed to encourage females. Get over it.

And I just want to add, that this is further evidence of the wholesale cultural acceptance of self identification.

The legal process has not become just a minor detail, it's becoming irrelevant.

Those comments are awful. One woman, a lesbian, valiantly trying to not say out loud that transwomen are men and being backed into an ever smaller corner.

However, just referencing a refusal to date trans woman as a whole (with no knowledge of said genitalia, looks, etc) — that is definitely transphobic. And that's the point most make in that discussion.

It's true that people can be attracted to one gender and not another, and we typically define that attraction as sexuality. Women who like women are said to be lesbians. We don't say it's discriminatory that they don't like men. But, trans women are women. If you're saying you are "not attracted to trans women," you are saying trans women are not women. So which is it?

ChocChocPorridge

Totally agree with your comment.