Why so much trans bashing on MN?

Culty, culty manupilative ideology. This is the ideology snd thinking that these TAs want to push in schools and on young children/kids. It's brsinwashing, it's their own dogma. It's not what we say - look at what thes TA's and allies are saying, what they want to push as the moral norm.

"Blanket statements about being unequivocally not attracted to a particular type of person are discriminatory. Saying you don't want to date black people because you just don't find them attractive is racist -- it's okay to have internalized feelings like that, because we all do, since we're conditioned that way, and no one should be having sex they don't want to have. BUT, if you're not challenging your own hang-ups and desires and working out why you have them in the first place, then you are absolutely contributing to a culture of prejudice.

It's true that people can be attracted to one gender and not another, and we typically define that attraction as sexuality. Women who like women are said to be lesbians. We don't say it's discriminatory that they don't like men. But, trans women are women. If you're saying you are "not attracted to trans women," you are saying trans women are not women. So which is it? You don't like penises, or you don't think trans women are women? As far as I'm aware there is no socially or scientifically understood category of "vaginosexual."

To put it another way; if you fall in love with a woman who is caring and kind and funny and beautiful and smart, and then discover she has a penis and you are no longer interested because of that alone or no longer see her as a woman, yes, that is transphobic and shitty. The "rape culture" argument is incredibly disingenuous and frankly insulting to victims of sexual violence everywhere; no one is making anyone sleep with anyone. You can sleep whoever you want, you just better think about why you like the things you like."

This comment explains exactly many young transfolks thinking on sex and attraction.

"If you say 'I will not date a trans woman.' Guess what, that's transphobic. That's not rape culture, that's you being shitty. If you say "I would date a trans woman, but not one with a penis' —I question why you're reducing someone to just their genitalia, but sure. That's fine.

However, just referencing a refusal to date trans woman as a whole (with no knowledge of said genitalia, looks, etc) — that is definitely transphobic. And that's the point most make in that discussion."

What yhey seem to forget is that someone only gets to that position of attraction/flirting etc because they have already assumed the person's biology and body parts at first glence and all along were expecting certain body parts and chromosomes.

Well exactly. And with a too heavy a dose of common sense to be acceptable, apparently.

Well it's all down to the demand that biology and sex isn't important, is actually no longer a fact as we traditionally understand it. It's now about the individual - if you are attracted to the person in front of you - then body parts or chromosomes shouldn't be important - it's the inner essence you are attracted to and how they identyfy should be enough, not their body. What yhey seem to forget is that someone only gets to that position of attraction/flirting etc because they have already assumed the person's biology and body parts at first glence and all along were expecting certain body parts and chromosomes.

I really don't know how they have been able to spin this nonsense to a point where others agree with it and find it totally logical.

Their argument is you can say you're not attracted to penises, but you can't say you are not attracted to transwomen (pre-or post op).

Desperately trying to make a distinction between a penis, and the person to whom it is attached.

Yes, and an entitled/rapey attitude toward sex is (shock horror) offputting

I've seen this argued begore. "So you were attracted to me - how i look, my personalty. Then you find out i'm trans - suddenly you're not attracted to me anymore. This is awful, illogical and transphobic".

Is this any different to a straight woman and a straight man catching one another's eye across a crowded bar, you go over and get talking, realise he has raging hallitosis/is a crashing bore in coversation/a UKIP supporter/Sid the Sexist and the initial attraction evaporates? He seemed friendly and attractive, but on further investigation, you realise you are not compatible. Sex is not compulsory.... Finding that the initial spark has gone is not misandry.

And this one.

I love this one...

I've seen quite a few critical memes recently... this one made me laugh!

You're welcome. I've noticed it on another thread too. Whatever you're doing, it's working.

I've been practicing writing. Thank you for your feedback, I really appreciate it

DJBaggySmalls

The clarity of your example is startling.

Thank you.

Like everything else to do with this words are being twisted to make people feel bad and give way.

Thanks for that example DJ you just given me a "light bulb" moment.

Intersectionality is about how patriarchy can recognise either one form of oppression or another. So the the two types cancel each other out and neither is dealt with.
The term is very specific, not ambiguous, and has been hijacked. The original example was a factory that employed white women in the office and black men on the assembly line was declared not racist for refusing to employ black women in the office.
The system could deal with either sexism or racism, but not both. So black women were at a double disadvantage.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

And yy of course to biology being at the root of our oppression and being the only genuine measure of a woman.

sticklebrix I went through the same process a couple of years ago when I first picked up on the trans threads on here. Down the rabbit hole. I really wished I could go back to blissful ignorance and un-know what I'd learned, but sadly that wasn't an option. And of course it's just grown legs in the meantime, with St Caitlyn of the Jenner and Obama's backing for all the bathroom bill stuff.

It's such a betrayal by the people we thought were supposed to be on our side, on the same side as us.

Unfortunately it's causing a lot of damage is done in the meantime

Well quite. I fear for my daughters' future. We seem to be going backwards rather than forwards.

It's about being inclusive of people who are women and therefore belong in feminism, but were being excluded and sidelined not about including non-women in feminism.

ChocChoc I too would like to thank you for this beautifully clear and succinct explanation of what intersectional feminism actually is; I have struggled to articulate it (also being quite new to a lot of this vocabulary) but that makes so much sense.

Yes its that they're not thinking properly before reacting.

Unfortunately it's causing a lot of damage is done in the meantime.

A proud Intersectional-feminism feminist Facebook friend of mine was really going for it on international women's day. 'feministing' really hard, and getting trolled by a lot of angry men. I had to resist the urge to ask what would happen if one of them went away and came back in a dress and heels, claiming to be a woman. Would she still 'call them out on their misogyny'? Or would they magically transform into 'women' she believes incapable of that strain of hatred?

BMacklin I completely agree with your sister. And think (hope) you're right that many people are just unaware of the issues.

Many people are half listening to the argument and thinking 'Liberal! That's great. I'm liberal too. So glad that people are listening to liberals'.

It's only when we start listening properly that we think 'wait, you're advocating what?!'

Quite nice to discover that I'm a dangerous radical in my dull middle age though

*gone not fine

Today 09:18 Bambambini

People know what a woman is. It's really quite simple. There's just a lot a pretence and being nice going on.

I think it's fine beyond that. People genuinely believe there is something to it. The 'born in the wrong body' narrative has taken hold.

Without debate, I think it will remain.

People know what a woman is. It's really quite simple. There's just a lot a pretence and being nice going on.

There really is.

Plus a lot of obfuscation. For example, this push to suggest that women and Femmes are oppressed - ie. that men oppress women because they look feminine, not because they're physically women.